On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:51:52 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:52:18 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:


A question. The NOAA charts are free because the government uses the
tax dollar to survey the area and print the chart, but what about
charts outside the U.S. ?

The US Navy is sporting around all over the globe are they using NOAA
charts? Paying the premium for the British Admiralty charts? Dead
Reckoning?

I'm sure that you can buy international charts from a shop in the U.S.
but where do they come from?
Cheers,

The U.S. Navy is supposed to go "paperless" for navigation this year.
This is interesting
http://www.dclab.com/navy_paperless.asp

And this
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/gis_hbk.htm
with much detail about nav data sources.

Very interesting. thank you.

My favorite line:
"During the Haitian crisis, a Navy ship found itself on a shoal
(according to CNN 'anchored just offshore')."

Never did find out where the Navy purchases paper charts, and I gave
up. Probably "Top Secret" except to 10,000 swabbies in BuPers.

--Vic

When I bought this boat the previous owner unloaded a pile of charts
easily 4 feet high. He was a retired Navy chief and mentioned that
"the navigating officer on the USS XXX is a friend of mine". I always
assumed that the charts were a world wide set.

But, what about all the folks that are carrying around those brass
gizmos - sextants I think that they are called.... Once the Navy goes
digital that will make sun shots redundant. Damn, the lead line is
gone, next it will be sextants and sooner or later the compass. What
will be left to differentiate us "sailors" from the farmers?


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:55:39 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
What
will be left to differentiate us "sailors" from the farmers?

Get one of those Capt'n hats. Even works in Iowa.
Add a rubber parrot on the shoulder so there's no mistaking you.
When you buy feed the parrot will alert the clerk to your real
identity every time, in case he thinks the hat is just a strange
bandana.
I was surprised to read on the first link that steaming Navy vessels
carried sails as a backup for 32 years after the intro of steam.

--Vic

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 07:18:49 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:55:39 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
What
will be left to differentiate us "sailors" from the farmers?

Get one of those Capt'n hats. Even works in Iowa.
Add a rubber parrot on the shoulder so there's no mistaking you.
When you buy feed the parrot will alert the clerk to your real
identity every time, in case he thinks the hat is just a strange
bandana.
I was surprised to read on the first link that steaming Navy vessels
carried sails as a backup for 32 years after the intro of steam.

--Vic

Yes - can't trust this newfangled stuff.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:11:46 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

I was surprised to read on the first link that steaming Navy vessels
carried sails as a backup for 32 years after the intro of steam.

--Vic

Yes - can't trust this newfangled stuff.

Until the perfection of the triple expansion steam engine, you
couldn't carry enough coal to cross oceans. What you could do with
limited coal was enter harbors, up rivers and against the wind. In a
fight you could take in the sails and manuver independent of the wind.

That is what you call an overwhelming advantage over a sail only ship.
Prior to the perfection of the screw propellor, the paddle wheels
presented huge targets and took out lots of broadside space used for
guns on a sail only ship. One reason steam was slow to be adopted. It
was used for harbor tugs early on.

Casady

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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:11:46 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

I was surprised to read on the first link that steaming Navy vessels
carried sails as a backup for 32 years after the intro of steam.

--Vic

Yes - can't trust this newfangled stuff.

The Titanic (and I presume her sister ships Britannic and Olympic)
carried emergency sails.


Interesting. The rigging plan at
http://titanic-theshipmagnificent.co...icRiggingPlan/

doesn't seem to show any sail control lines or yards.


Mark Borgerson

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says...
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says...
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says...
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says...
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:11:46 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

I was surprised to read on the first link that steaming Navy vessels
carried sails as a backup for 32 years after the intro of steam.

--Vic

Yes - can't trust this newfangled stuff.

The Titanic (and I presume her sister ships Britannic and Olympic)
carried emergency sails.


Interesting. The rigging plan at
http://titanic-theshipmagnificent.co...icRiggingPlan/

doesn't seem to show any sail control lines or yards.


Mark Borgerson

Ref: British Government, Loss of the Steamship Titanic, Report of formal
investigation (Washington: Governmernt Printing Office, 1912) p. 29.


Is that report available on line? It would be interesting to see what
sort of sails they hand and what kind of progress they would expect
if the engines failed.

The only thing I found was:

http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq...pStructure.php

"Masts and Rigging. - The vessel was rigged with two masts, and fore and
aft sails. The two pole masts were constructed of steel, and stiffened
with angle irons. The poles at the top of the mast were made of teak."

I wonder how effective a few fore and aft sails might have been,
considering the windage and weight of the ship.





Mark Borgerson

Gogarty wrote:
... I did most of my research at the Library of Congress
and had access to all the original documents.

I doubt those sails could have been very effective at all. Puts me in mind of
vestigial organs or limbs that once had a function but no longer do and
nobody can figure out why they are still there except they always have been.
I measn look at the design of your average 1920s megayacht with long bowsprit
and clipper bow and raked masts that might carry sails but never did.


My guess, for what it's worth:
with no sails, Titanic might have made 3 points off downwind to either
side with no adverse run of the sea.
With both sails set, you might notch it up to 4 points off the downwind,
and a shade faster....

Brian W