Peggie Hall wrote:

You have a whole bunch of problems, Steve...

Stephen Trapani wrote:

Your first problem:

When we use the head (a Groco Type K) and pump it out, the waste
comes out the holding tank vent line.

I meant when I pump the toilet...


This seems impossible to me. First of all, the tank itself is
empty...

It can't be. You may THINK it is because you've pumped out or dumped the
tank till nothing more comes out, but your tank has to be full to
overflowing for waste to be forced out the vent and fittings on the top
of the tank.

Okay, then I'm thinking logically, just going insane. Or I really do
have a magic head! ;-) It's a plastic tank, I can see it's empty. I can
move the tank around with one hand, it's light like it's empty (It's not
tied down). I'm not there atm, I'll triple check it again this weekend.
If it's full, I'll check in to the nearest psych ward.

It was totally full when I first bought the boat, I unscrewed the
fittings at the top of the tank, sucked it all out from there with a
power vac (because the boat was in dry dock and I had to move the tank
to do some work on the shaft), disconnected the tank completely and
pulled it out, rinsed it out, put it back in and reconnected everything
(possibly reversing the pump-out, which I connected to the fitting near
the bottom of the tank, and the line from the head, which I connected to
the fitting near the top of the tank; both of these are on one side of
the tank).

Since then we've used the head an entire weekend, with waste coming out
the vent line the whole time, I think. The vent can't be plugged, it's
functioning as the entire discharge for the system! I've been watching
the tank, it's right there in the starboard cockpit locker, never seen
it collect waste. I haven't checked any of the lines yet though.

The tank vent attached at the top of the tank *definitely* stops right
there at the top, it's connected with a hose clamp, I reconnected it
myself, there is nothing connecting the vent line to the bottom of the tank.

When I get time, um next on the list right after I try out my new sails,
I'll take everything apart like you said, but...

Once you've done that, if it were my boat, I'd pull out the the whole
system, rebuild the toilet while it's out of the boat, and reinstall
everything correctly...with all new hoses--including the vent line--a
new y-valve (or maybe not--nor any macerator to dump the tank
either--unless you're in coastal water that offer immediate access to
open sea at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US
coastline...'cuz it's illegal flush directly overboard OR dump a tank in
ALL inland waters including the Great Lakes and any coastal waters
inside the "3 mile limit".)...reconnect it to the intake
thru-hull--which I suspect you've mistaken for a head discharge
thru-hull...I'll bet the PO "converted" it when he connected the intake
to the fresh water system.

.... could be, but the '79 Hunter 33' couldn't have been designed without
a head discharge thru-hull, could it? Maybe it Y'd into the sink
discharge? Should I try to run it to there?


The Hunter Owners Website at http://www.hunterowners.com/ is an
excellent resource for any information you need about anything on your
boat.

You're right. I recently saw an owners manual posted there for the '80
H33, I just couldn't figure out how to download the pdf file onto my
ibook, I just got a page with a picture of the manual.



Groco can supply you with a manual for your toilet that includes
directions for installing and plumbing it correctly. And I think you'll
find the link in my signature useful too.

Yes, once I get my elbows into this mess I think I'll have both of those.

If you still have questions, I'll be glad to answer 'em.

Thanks! hey what do I get if I manage to stump the head mistress? an in
person consultation?? ;-)

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:


When we use the head (a Groco Type K) and pump it out, the waste
comes out the holding tank vent line.

I meant when I pump the toilet...

I knew that's what you meant.


Okay, then I'm thinking logically, just going insane. Or I really do
have a magic head! ;-) It's a plastic tank, I can see it's empty.

Since you've used the toilet, or only after you vacuumed it out? 'Cuz
it's very possible that the tank doesn't hold anywhere near as much as
you think it does. How many gallons is it supposed to hold? It's also
possible that the toilet either uses a lot more flush water than you
think...or that it's leaking flush water, filling up the tank.


I can
move the tank around with one hand, it's light like it's empty (It's not
tied down).

It's not too hard to slide a tank around...and you do need to secure it
from sliding when you're heeled.


I'm not there atm, I'll triple check it again this weekend.
If it's full, I'll check in to the nearest psych ward.

I don't think you're hallucinating...but I also know that there are
a only a limited number things that can force waste out the vent.

It was totally full when I first bought the boat, I unscrewed the
fittings at the top of the tank, sucked it all out from there with a
power vac (because the boat was in dry dock and I had to move the tank
to do some work on the shaft), disconnected the tank completely and
pulled it out, rinsed it out, put it back in and reconnected everything
(possibly reversing the pump-out, which I connected to the fitting near
the bottom of the tank, and the line from the head, which I connected to
the fitting near the top of the tank; both of these are on one side of
the tank).

You got it right--waste goes in at the top, has to be pumped out from
the bottom.


Since then we've used the head an entire weekend, with waste coming out
the vent line the whole time, I think. The vent can't be plugged, it's
functioning as the entire discharge for the system! I've been watching
the tank, it's right there in the starboard cockpit locker, never seen
it collect waste.

Hmmmm...

I haven't checked any of the lines yet though.

Lines.....WHOOPS--we may be onto something: Is there a vented loop in
the head discharge line that has it's own tiny vent line that's teed
into the tank vent line? If so, where's the loop--before or after the
y-valve? I need all the details you can give me. If no loop (which,
since your toilet flushes directly overboard, there should be), is
ANYthing teed into the tank vent line?

...reconnect it to the intake
thru-hull--which I suspect you've mistaken for a head discharge
thru-hull...I'll bet the PO "converted" it when he connected the
intake to the fresh water system.


... could be, but the '79 Hunter 33' couldn't have been designed without
a head discharge thru-hull, could it?

Prob'ly not on one that old, but it's possible...'cuz '79 was the first
model year to require holding tanks. Many boats built from then on were
plumbed to send all the waste to the tank. But it's more likely that a
PO prior to the most recent PO removed the head thru-hull and glassed it
over...'cuz your toilet isn't original either (it's a $600 toilet, btw).
So I'm guessing that the same PO who connected the intake to the fresh
water system also installed that toilet and decided to use the sink
drain through hull as a head discharge. However...

Maybe it Y'd into the sink
discharge? Should I try to run it to there?

That'll work...in fact, although I don't think Hunter ever did, many
sailboats are plumbed that way to eliminate a thru-hull. You will have
to either keep a plug in the sink or install a shut=off valve in the
sink drain line that should remain closed except when the sink is in
use...otherwise the toilet will pull air through the sink that'll
prevent it from priming and pulling in any flush water.

The Hunter Owners Website at http://www.hunterowners.com/ is an
excellent resource for any information you need about anything on your
boat.


You're right. I recently saw an owners manual posted there for the '80
H33, I just couldn't figure out how to download the pdf file onto my
ibook, I just got a page with a picture of the manual.

If you post a request, someone will be glad to get a copy to you.

If you still have questions, I'll be glad to answer 'em.

Thanks! hey what do I get if I manage to stump the head mistress? an in
person consultation?? ;-)

You just might--at least a phone consultation anyway.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Peggie Hall wrote:


Lines.....WHOOPS--we may be onto something: Is there a vented loop in
the head discharge line that has it's own tiny vent line that's teed
into the tank vent line? If so, where's the loop--before or after the
y-valve? I need all the details you can give me. If no loop (which,
since your toilet flushes directly overboard, there should be), is
ANYthing teed into the tank vent line?

This is definitely something I'll look for. The vent line comes off the
top of the tank and heads toward the stern but it's hard to see back
there so I've never traced it. It's *got* to be something like that.
There is no such thing as the supernatural!

I'll get back to you with my findings. Now I just need to decide whether
I move up the job of cleaning out that nasty, greasy helm locker before
I climb down in there to check this out.

Stephen

Steve, if you have any questions you'd rather not post, you're welcome
to email: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.

Peggie

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Peggie Hall wrote:


Lines.....WHOOPS--we may be onto something: Is there a vented loop in
the head discharge line that has it's own tiny vent line that's teed
into the tank vent line? If so, where's the loop--before or after the
y-valve? I need all the details you can give me. If no loop (which,
since your toilet flushes directly overboard, there should be), is
ANYthing teed into the tank vent line?


This is definitely something I'll look for. The vent line comes off the
top of the tank and heads toward the stern but it's hard to see back
there so I've never traced it. It's *got* to be something like that.
There is no such thing as the supernatural!

I'll get back to you with my findings. Now I just need to decide whether
I move up the job of cleaning out that nasty, greasy helm locker before
I climb down in there to check this out.

Stephen



--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

Please post your results here. You have peaked my curiosity.


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville PA __/)__/)__


"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Peggie Hall wrote:


Lines.....WHOOPS--we may be onto something: Is there a vented loop in
the head discharge line that has it's own tiny vent line that's teed
into the tank vent line? If so, where's the loop--before or after the
y-valve? I need all the details you can give me. If no loop (which,
since your toilet flushes directly overboard, there should be), is
ANYthing teed into the tank vent line?

This is definitely something I'll look for. The vent line comes off the
top of the tank and heads toward the stern but it's hard to see back
there so I've never traced it. It's *got* to be something like that.
There is no such thing as the supernatural!

I'll get back to you with my findings. Now I just need to decide whether
I move up the job of cleaning out that nasty, greasy helm locker before
I climb down in there to check this out.

Stephen

Okay, time for me to pay the piper, face the music, um, take my lumps,
er, anyway...

Turns out, I don't have a magic head, don't even have a difficult head
problem due to some weird vent connection. What I have is:


Peggie Hall wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:


When we use the head (a Groco Type K) and pump it out, the waste
comes out the holding tank vent line.


I meant when I pump the toilet...


I knew that's what you meant.


Okay, then I'm thinking logically, just going insane. Or I really do
have a magic head! ;-) It's a plastic tank, I can see it's empty.


Since you've used the toilet, or only after you vacuumed it out? 'Cuz
it's very possible that the tank doesn't hold anywhere near as much as
you think it does. How many gallons is it supposed to hold? It's also
possible that the toilet either uses a lot more flush water than you
think...or that it's leaking flush water, filling up the tank.

Yeah the tank was full. Somehow my dreamworld must have gotten mixed up
with reality, or my memory mixed up with itself, or something, so your
first guess was the right one. Good job! Not only didn't I stump the
headmistress I didn't even give her a little challenge. Oh well.

No point going into the gory details of how I messed up, I'm kind of
sketchy on that anyway, but you pretty much nailed it from the start.

I would like to ask another question though, since we now know my
confusion knows no bounds. Remember the head intake is connected to the
fresh water system:


...reconnect it to the intake thru-hull--which I suspect you've
mistaken for a head discharge thru-hull...I'll bet the PO "converted"
it when he connected the intake to the fresh water system.



... could be, but the '79 Hunter 33' couldn't have been designed
without a head discharge thru-hull, could it?


Prob'ly not on one that old, but it's possible...'cuz '79 was the first
model year to require holding tanks. Many boats built from then on were
plumbed to send all the waste to the tank. But it's more likely that a
PO prior to the most recent PO removed the head thru-hull and glassed it
over...'cuz your toilet isn't original either (it's a $600 toilet, btw).
So I'm guessing that the same PO who connected the intake to the fresh
water system also installed that toilet and decided to use the sink
drain through hull as a head discharge. However...

Maybe it Y'd into the sink discharge? Should I try to run it to there?


That'll work...in fact, although I don't think Hunter ever did, many
sailboats are plumbed that way to eliminate a thru-hull. You will have
to either keep a plug in the sink or install a shut=off valve in the
sink drain line that should remain closed except when the sink is in
use...otherwise the toilet will pull air through the sink that'll
prevent it from priming and pulling in any flush water.

So I have a through hull in the starboard locker near the head that
appears to be attached to the Y-valve and a through hull way over under
the port settee that, to the best of my knowledge is connected only to
the sink discharge. Where should I connect the raw water intake for the
head and where should I connect the overboard side of the head discharge?

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Okay, time for me to pay the piper, face the music, um, take my lumps,
er, anyway...

Turns out, I don't have a magic head, don't even have a difficult head
problem due to some weird vent connection. What I have is:

Yeah the tank was full. Somehow my dreamworld must have gotten mixed up
with reality, or my memory mixed up with itself, or something, so your
first guess was the right one. Good job! Not only didn't I stump the
headmistress I didn't even give her a little challenge. Oh well.

So I have a through hull in the starboard locker near the head that
appears to be attached to the Y-valve and a through hull way over under
the port settee that, to the best of my knowledge is connected only to
the sink discharge. Where should I connect the raw water intake for the
head and where should I connect the overboard side of the head discharge?

Welll... You can use the same 3/4" thru-hull for both the head sink
drain and the head intake, but you cannot use the same thru-hull for
both the head intake and discharge. Since you don't have a 1.5" head
discharge thru-hull/seacock, you'll have to install one...or maybe not,
unless you're in coastal waters that offer immediate access to open sea
at least 3 miles offshore from the nearest point on the whole US
coastline...'cuz it's illegal to flush a toilet directly overboard or
dump a tank in any US coastal waters inside the "3 mile limit" and in
all inland waters including the Great Lakes.

Getting you sorted out is gonna be more involved than is practical here.
So how 'bout emailing me?
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1