On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:11:28 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Heck, you can
even drown in any water over, say 7 feet.

Ira Hayes, the Pima indian who was one of those to raise the flag on
Mount Suribachi on Iowa Jima, drowned while drunk, in two inches of
water. At least according to Johhny Cash. Two inches is enough

Casady

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:58:09 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

If gasoline must be used for an
outboard, then it must be carried on deck.

That's what we do.

I once came very close to blowing up one of my old sail boats from
leaking dinghy gasoline below decks. We found out when the diesel
aux continued to run after I shut it down. The bilge fumes were so
intense that it continued to run until I opened the engine
compartment.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:11:28 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Exactly. A great many airosols are using deoderized propane

Nitpick. Never odorized in the first place. BTW, they use some
mercaptan for that. A Texas school was heated with odorless gas,
[including some propane], from a well on the place, and it blew up
with no warning. I used to have a place with a propane furnace in the
basement, but it wasn't a boat with waves flexing all the connections.
Thousand gallon tank. Sometimes you can hear an exploding house for
miles. TNT is 2000 BTU per pound, hydrocarbons run about 18 000.

Casady

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:23:42 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:11:28 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Exactly. A great many airosols are using deoderized propane

Nitpick. Never odorized in the first place. BTW, they use some
mercaptan for that. A Texas school was heated with odorless gas,
[including some propane], from a well on the place, and it blew up
with no warning. I used to have a place with a propane furnace in the
basement, but it wasn't a boat with waves flexing all the connections.
Thousand gallon tank. Sometimes you can hear an exploding house for
miles. TNT is 2000 BTU per pound, hydrocarbons run about 18 000.

Casady

Lets put it this way. The propane that the gas plant I installed in
Central Java had an odor. The same people that built our plant were
installing a "deodorized propane" plant in Alabama. I asked them what
"deodorized propane was used for and they told me that it was aerosol
propellant. Now, if propane has no odor then obviously the gas plant
people were getting about two million dollars for nothing.

Meracptain is added to, mainly, LPG as a matter of law in most
countries. Commercial Propane, not the cooking kind, is not
adulterated with nasty stinking stuff :-)

According to my copy of "Physical Properties of hydrocarbons" the net
BTU/lb (of liquid) wt. in vacuum, of propane is 19757, gross = 21079.
Heat of vaporization is 183/BTU/lb.
n-Octane (the closest I can get to "gasoline which is actually a mix
of hydro-carbons) is 19096/BTU/lb. One pound of dynamite is about
5,000 BTU.

Of course that isn't the entire story as the effects of an explosive
is primarily measured by its speed of propagation. Not by BTUs.

But in any event. Any hydro-carbon is dangerous if it is ignited.


Cheers,

Bruce

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:19:48 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Lets put it this way. The propane that the gas plant I installed in
Central Java had an odor. The same people that built our plant were
installing a "deodorized propane" plant in Alabama. I asked them what
"deodorized propane was used for and they told me that it was aerosol
propellant. Now, if propane has no odor then obviously the gas plant
people were getting about two million dollars for nothing.

Propane has no odor, and if it did you couldn't remove it. It's a
compound not a mixture.
Some natural gas, the source of propane, contains hydrogen sulfide,
some doesn't. It burns well and and they may leave it in fuel gas. I
don't know if it is likely to end up in the propane, or not. H2S boils
at -85 C, and propane boils at -42. I think they liquify it and
distill off the methane and ethane, which the sell as natural gas,
leaving LP gas which everyone loosely calls propane. They may or may
not remove the butane for separate use,[mostly synthesis feedstock].

Casady

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:19:48 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

One pound of dynamite is about
5,000 BTU.

Commercial dynamite is almost a thing of the past. All you can still
get is 40% ditching powder. Pure nitro is 2550 BTU/ lb. {TNT is 2000}
so, it's actually a thousand BTU, not five.

Casady

Steve Lusardi wrote:
"IanM" wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
After reading my first comment, it might be considered a bit impolite and
that was not my intention. LPG, CNG or gasoline is really convenient, but
it truly is very dangerous. It is virtually impossible to make any of
them safe if any part of the system is below deck. For that reason, I
carry only Diesel and use only electric below deck. If gasoline must be
used for an outboard, then it must be carried on deck.
Steve

And how many aerosol cans and bottles of volatile solvents do you have
aboard? They are all potential bombs in an enclosed space.

None
Steve
OK, I respect that. After considering the risk/benefit ratio, you've
decided to do the job *right* and eliminate the source of risk totally.

I still reckon my chances of getting blown to bits by gas and volatiles
aboard are small enough that keeping on top of preventative maintenance,
good operating procedures, proper stowage etc. is acceptable risk
management.

I've got a bigger chance of dying messily (or worse - not quite dying)
driving to the boat most weekends. If I was a close friend or relative
of the guy who lost a leg in an onboard gas explosion in Poole a few
years back, I might feel differently but the statistics don't support
the emotional reaction. With a lower background risk level, I might
reconsider.

What do you do if you think you may need a blowtorch while cruising? I
assume you don't carry any paints and varnish etc. for touching up
scrapes when they happen?

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:02:08 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:19:48 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Lets put it this way. The propane that the gas plant I installed in
Central Java had an odor. The same people that built our plant were
installing a "deodorized propane" plant in Alabama. I asked them what
"deodorized propane was used for and they told me that it was aerosol
propellant. Now, if propane has no odor then obviously the gas plant
people were getting about two million dollars for nothing.

Propane has no odor, and if it did you couldn't remove it. It's a
compound not a mixture.
Some natural gas, the source of propane, contains hydrogen sulfide,
some doesn't. It burns well and and they may leave it in fuel gas. I
don't know if it is likely to end up in the propane, or not. H2S boils
at -85 C, and propane boils at -42. I think they liquify it and
distill off the methane and ethane, which the sell as natural gas,
leaving LP gas which everyone loosely calls propane. They may or may
not remove the butane for separate use,[mostly synthesis feedstock].

Casady

Stop trying to "teach your grandmother to suck eggs". I installed gas
plants as one of the various projects the company did during my nearly
30 years in the oil business. While I do not argue that propane may
have a natural odor I can assure you that the same company that
fabricated our plant did build a "deodorized Propane" plant in Alabama
and I doubt very much that it was a scam.

Sulphur compounds may occur in hydro-carbon deposits but, again, I can
assure you that any appreciable amount makes your product very hard to
sell - that is why there are standards... and also why the standards
for sulphur in diesel has been relaxed over the years. Not because
they suddenly discovered that sulphur doesn't matter but because it is
damned hard to remove all sulphur and loosening standards allows the
refiner to use cheaper methods to make the product.

You are correct that separation of the various gasses is done by a
combination of heat and pressure but sulphur separation is normally
one of the first stages in the plant as sulphur contamination effects
the plant as well as the end user.

Propane as sold as a commercial product (not for heating) is nearly
pure propane. Cooking gas,called LPG, is a combination of (mainly)
propane and butane in various ratios depending on the country of sale
(and in northern countries, perhaps on season).

Cheers,

Bruce

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:40:06 +0000, IanM
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:
"IanM" wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
After reading my first comment, it might be considered a bit impolite and
that was not my intention. LPG, CNG or gasoline is really convenient, but
it truly is very dangerous. It is virtually impossible to make any of
them safe if any part of the system is below deck. For that reason, I
carry only Diesel and use only electric below deck. If gasoline must be
used for an outboard, then it must be carried on deck.
Steve

And how many aerosol cans and bottles of volatile solvents do you have
aboard? They are all potential bombs in an enclosed space.

None
Steve
OK, I respect that. After considering the risk/benefit ratio, you've
decided to do the job *right* and eliminate the source of risk totally.

I still reckon my chances of getting blown to bits by gas and volatiles
aboard are small enough that keeping on top of preventative maintenance,
good operating procedures, proper stowage etc. is acceptable risk
management.

I've got a bigger chance of dying messily (or worse - not quite dying)
driving to the boat most weekends. If I was a close friend or relative
of the guy who lost a leg in an onboard gas explosion in Poole a few
years back, I might feel differently but the statistics don't support
the emotional reaction. With a lower background risk level, I might
reconsider.

What do you do if you think you may need a blowtorch while cruising? I
assume you don't carry any paints and varnish etc. for touching up
scrapes when they happen?


If you are describing a "week-ender" you are correct but what about
the live-aboards and long distance cruisers?

By the way, after worrying about all the LPG, gasoline, etc. I know of
a boat that sunk in the harbor at Langkawi, Malaysia because a bottle
of MEK (Thinner it is called over here) broke in bad weather and
dripped down on a water hose and dissolved it. The owner was ashore,
in the hospital, so the boat sank.

Of course there were usual stories about "sinking the boat for
insurance" but I met the owner some years later and the insurance
company had paid off and he was rebuilding the boat in Thailand.

While I certainly agree with you that one should be as safe as
possible but on the other hand messing about on water that is over
your head must considered as inherently unsafe.... just as flying in
airplanes.... or driving cars....or smoking.
Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:40:06 +0000, IanM
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:
"IanM" wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
After reading my first comment, it might be considered a bit impolite and
that was not my intention. LPG, CNG or gasoline is really convenient, but
it truly is very dangerous. It is virtually impossible to make any of
them safe if any part of the system is below deck. For that reason, I
carry only Diesel and use only electric below deck. If gasoline must be
used for an outboard, then it must be carried on deck.
Steve

And how many aerosol cans and bottles of volatile solvents do you have
aboard? They are all potential bombs in an enclosed space.

None
Steve
OK, I respect that. After considering the risk/benefit ratio, you've
decided to do the job *right* and eliminate the source of risk totally.

I still reckon my chances of getting blown to bits by gas and volatiles
aboard are small enough that keeping on top of preventative maintenance,
good operating procedures, proper stowage etc. is acceptable risk
management.

I've got a bigger chance of dying messily (or worse - not quite dying)
driving to the boat most weekends. If I was a close friend or relative
of the guy who lost a leg in an onboard gas explosion in Poole a few
years back, I might feel differently but the statistics don't support
the emotional reaction. With a lower background risk level, I might
reconsider.

What do you do if you think you may need a blowtorch while cruising? I
assume you don't carry any paints and varnish etc. for touching up
scrapes when they happen?


If you are describing a "week-ender" you are correct but what about
the live-aboards and long distance cruisers?

By the way, after worrying about all the LPG, gasoline, etc. I know of
a boat that sunk in the harbor at Langkawi, Malaysia because a bottle
of MEK (Thinner it is called over here) broke in bad weather and
dripped down on a water hose and dissolved it. The owner was ashore,
in the hospital, so the boat sank.

Of course there were usual stories about "sinking the boat for
insurance" but I met the owner some years later and the insurance
company had paid off and he was rebuilding the boat in Thailand.

While I certainly agree with you that one should be as safe as
possible but on the other hand messing about on water that is over
your head must considered as inherently unsafe.... just as flying in
airplanes.... or driving cars....or smoking.
Cheers,

Bruce
We did several thousand NM last year and I carry more spares and
maintenance supplies than many boats 10' longer. For 'just a weekender'
we do a **** of a lot of sailing and I end up fixing the boat in
interesting places even if not the exotic one the blue water guys get to
:-) And yes that is with gas, including a spare bottle that cannot be
stowed in the dedicated locker, petrol, aerosols, thinners and a gas
lighter on board.

I have heard the tale of a skipper who had a tin of Nitromors paint
stripper rust out that ate a hole through the GRP of the bottom of his
boat. The first he knew about it was when he didn't have to pump the
bilge every week! (deep non-self draining cockpit, boat blocked up
ashore) Apparently the glassfibre was still there but the resin had
gone form an area the size of a dinner plate :-(

If we are off the boat overnight or longer, the seacocks *are* all
closed. I'm lazy and I dont bother shutting everything off if I'm just
going ashore for a meal or a quick shop. If I ended up in hospital, and
was able to talk I reckon any friend, fellow boater or *working* harbour
official would be happy to secure my vessel, closing seacocks,
isolating the batteries and shutting off the fuel and gas etc. Your
acquaintance was unlucky not to have the seacock closed.

The greatest risk I take is returning from the pub by tender . . . .
Life is a risk, no-one gets out alive!


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: