On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll



wrote:
On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard

Casady) wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size
has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy
power poles with.

Casady

Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more
maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own
work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others
the it is doubtful

The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty
thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the
eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the
tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get
your wallet ready.

Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty
thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and
usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is
done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it
well into the wrappings.

Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you
will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the
cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various
other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to
think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you
will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with
sticky, black, tarry gunk.

Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly
maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless.

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more
and get the better galv.
you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all
manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the
level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm
for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the
outside about twice a year.

If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you
do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be
changing the stuff every ten years or so.

Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable
clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often.

If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making
the terminations? Spliced eyes or served?
Cheers,

Bruce

depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye
spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather
is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the
lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a
line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is
how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:03:10 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll



wrote:
On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard

Casady) wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size
has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy
power poles with.

Casady

Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more
maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own
work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others
the it is doubtful

The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty
thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the
eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the
tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get
your wallet ready.

Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty
thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and
usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is
done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it
well into the wrappings.

Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you
will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the
cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various
other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to
think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you
will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with
sticky, black, tarry gunk.

Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly
maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless.

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more
and get the better galv.
you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all
manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the
level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm
for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the
outside about twice a year.

If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you
do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be
changing the stuff every ten years or so.

Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable
clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often.

If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making
the terminations? Spliced eyes or served?
Cheers,

Bruce

depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye
spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather
is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the
lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a
line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is
how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up

Which is partially what I was talking about.

How much per shroud/stay for a rigger to do all this splicing -
serving - parceling -etc plus the annual inspection and re-slushing?
As apposed to cutting a length of stainless and either swedging a
terminal on the ends, or screwing on a sta-lock fitting. Inspection is
a yearly look at the terminals with a magnifying glass.

Just as the old cotton sails, the initial motivation is to decrease
maintenance.
Cheers,

Bruce

Edgar wrote:

Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat
restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about
boats.

Yes, it is Ok in any application where you can grease it. But you can't
grease your rigging unless you want your sails, ropes and everything else to
get covered in it.


You would feel a lot better if you used a Mil Spec style corrosion
inhibitor. These set to a waxy finish within 24 hours.
Even a BoeShield T-6 (not sure about that number) aerosol cannister
will do a serviceable job. It's this style of inhibitor that coats
the galvanized aileron control cables in the 737 you flew in recently.....

Brian W

On Feb 10, 4:39 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:03:10 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll



wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll

wrote:
On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard

Casady) wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size
has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy
power poles with.

Casady

Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more
maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own
work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others
the it is doubtful

The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty
thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the
eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the
tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get
your wallet ready.

Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty
thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and
usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is
done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it
well into the wrappings.

Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you
will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the
cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various
other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to
think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you
will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with
sticky, black, tarry gunk.

Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly
maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless.

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more
and get the better galv.
you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all
manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the
level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm
for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the
outside about twice a year.

If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you
do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be
changing the stuff every ten years or so.

Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable
clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often.

If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making
the terminations? Spliced eyes or served?
Cheers,

Bruce

depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye
spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather
is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the
lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a
line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is
how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up

Which is partially what I was talking about.

How much per shroud/stay for a rigger to do all this splicing -
serving - parceling -etc plus the annual inspection and re-slushing?
As apposed to cutting a length of stainless and either swedging a
terminal on the ends, or screwing on a sta-lock fitting. Inspection is
a yearly look at the terminals with a magnifying glass.

Just as the old cotton sails, the initial motivation is to decrease
maintenance.
Cheers,

Bruce

once the rigging is up it hardly takes much time. I understand the
Maintainer time issue, I dont tend to agree with it but i do
understand. However i have yet to see anyone running Galve that spends
much time on the rigging. certs not more than a day a year. IMO folks
should take a day a year and run through the rigging in any case. Ahh
well I'll keep mine no matter its quiet and easy to work. I am a lazy
old troll.

Edgar wrote:

I have no experience of the systems worked by a sort of bolt cutter but
would not be certain that the average person could produce enough force to
compress a copper ferrule.
I am about to fit new steering wires to my boat if it ever stops snowing.
The old ones are terminated with Nico-press fittings but I have made Talurit
splices on the new ones.


The Nicopress sleeves used to terminate galvanized aircraft control
cables are made of copper, and the aircraft supply companies suggest
zinc coated copper sleeves for stainless wire cable. Aluminum sleeves
are often stocked in hardware stores - they do well with galvanized
cable in the smaller diameters to 3/16 inch certainly.
A sleeve set by a reworked bolt cutter needs a little care, because as
you can easily imagine, it is quite possible to squeeze the diameter
over the two cables far too skinny with this tool.
That's what a gage is for.
Grinding a bolt cutter's blades into two semicircles of the appropriate
size works well. A sleeve (or ferrule) is squeezed three times, but
NEVER at different angles, or at right angles to and over an existing
squeeze. That about guarantees a slip, in a joint which will otherwise
hold up over 90% of the rated breaking strain of the cable, often over 100%.

Brian W

Richard Casady wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size
has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy
power poles with.

Casady

OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we
say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a
variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that
not all "galvanized" wire is the same.

Just look at 1/4" for example:
Common = 1,900 lbs
Siemens Martin = 3, 150 lbs
HS = 4,750 lbs
EHS = 6,650 lbs

It also comes with three levels of galvanizing:
Class A: Minimum amount of zinc coating.
Class B: Twice the amount of zinc coating as “A.”
Class C: Three times the amount of zinc coating as “A.”

Then there are various fittings. The "bullets" form Preformed Line
Products would seem to me to make good connectors.



I copied this from
http://www.anixter.it/AXECOM/AXEDocLib.nsf/(UnID)/8DBC60E3F238E8CF80256F2500690530/$file/WCTHContentsInstallation.pdf


Size Grade Wt/1,000 ft Breaking Strength
3?16 Common 73 1,150
3?16 Utility 2.2M 73 2,400
1?4 Common 121 1,900
1?4 Siemens Martin 121 3,150
1?4 High Strength 121 4,750
1?4 Ex. High Strength 121 6,650
5?16 Common 205 3,200
5?16 Siemens Martin 205 5,350
5?16 Utilities Grade 6M 225 6,000
5?16 High Strength 205 8,000
5?16 Ex. High Strength 205 11,200
3?8 Common 273 4,250
3?8 Siemens Martin 273 6,950
3?8 Utility 10M 273 11,500
3?8 High Strength 273 10,800
3?8 Ex. High Strength 273 15,400
7?16 Siemens Martin 399 9,350
7?16 High Strength 399 14,500
7?16 Utility 16M 399 18,000
1?2 Siemens Martin 517 12,100
1?2 High Strength 517 18,800
1?2 Utility 25M 517 25,000

Then there is 30% EHS Copper-Clad Steel, that might but the best bet of
all??? 6,282 lbs

hpeer wrote:
Richard Casady wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size
has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy
power poles with.

Casady

OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we
say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a
variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that
not all "galvanized" wire is the same.

Just look at 1/4" for example:
Common = 1,900 lbs
Siemens Martin = 3, 150 lbs
HS = 4,750 lbs
EHS = 6,650 lbs

It also comes with three levels of galvanizing:
Class A: Minimum amount of zinc coating.
Class B: Twice the amount of zinc coating as “A.”
Class C: Three times the amount of zinc coating as “A.”

Then there are various fittings. The "bullets" form Preformed Line
Products would seem to me to make good connectors.



I copied this from
http://www.anixter.it/AXECOM/AXEDocLib.nsf/(UnID)/8DBC60E3F238E8CF80256F2500690530/$file/WCTHContentsInstallation.pdf



Size Grade Wt/1,000 ft Breaking Strength
3?16 Common 73 1,150
3?16 Utility 2.2M 73 2,400
1?4 Common 121 1,900
1?4 Siemens Martin 121 3,150
1?4 High Strength 121 4,750
1?4 Ex. High Strength 121 6,650
5?16 Common 205 3,200
5?16 Siemens Martin 205 5,350
5?16 Utilities Grade 6M 225 6,000
5?16 High Strength 205 8,000
5?16 Ex. High Strength 205 11,200
3?8 Common 273 4,250
3?8 Siemens Martin 273 6,950
3?8 Utility 10M 273 11,500
3?8 High Strength 273 10,800
3?8 Ex. High Strength 273 15,400
7?16 Siemens Martin 399 9,350
7?16 High Strength 399 14,500
7?16 Utility 16M 399 18,000
1?2 Siemens Martin 517 12,100
1?2 High Strength 517 18,800
1?2 Utility 25M 517 25,000

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote:

OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we
say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a
variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that
not all "galvanized" wire is the same.

I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and
stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7.
Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with
three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder.
They sell it today.

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote:

OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we
say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a
variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that
not all "galvanized" wire is the same.

I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and
stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7.
Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with
three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder.
They sell it today.

The first figure (7) is the number of strands. 7 strand wire is six strands
wound round a seventh wire core.
The second number is the number of individual wires in each strand. In 7 x 7
each individual strand is itself six wires wound round a seventh as core.
Some galvanised wires are 6 x (number of wires). This construction is 6
strands wound round a hemp core.
The higher the number of wires in a strand the more flexible the complete
rope is

So 7 x 7 would be a stiffish wire suited to standing rigging. Not so good
for going round pulleys as the individual wires will be thicker and subject
to fatigue..
Having said that however this wire construction is recommended by the makers
of my steering gear which is why I am now having to replace the wires
because the first strand or two have fatigued and are protruding where the
wire goes round the pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal. However I do not
know how many years thee wires have been in service. If using this wire to
go round a pulley make sure the pulley is as large diameter as possible.

7 x 19 would be more flexible for running gear and because the individual
strands are thinner this wire would corrode more rapidly.

Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application,
not for boats.

Standing rigging these days is normally 1 x 19 SS wire. This is a single
strand containing 19 wires and cannot be used where any flexibility is
required

Edgar wrote:
"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote:

OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we
say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a
variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that
not all "galvanized" wire is the same.
I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and
stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7.
Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with
three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder.
They sell it today.

The first figure (7) is the number of strands. 7 strand wire is six strands
wound round a seventh wire core.
The second number is the number of individual wires in each strand. In 7 x 7
each individual strand is itself six wires wound round a seventh as core.
Some galvanised wires are 6 x (number of wires). This construction is 6
strands wound round a hemp core.
The higher the number of wires in a strand the more flexible the complete
rope is

So 7 x 7 would be a stiffish wire suited to standing rigging. Not so good
for going round pulleys as the individual wires will be thicker and subject
to fatigue..
Having said that however this wire construction is recommended by the makers
of my steering gear which is why I am now having to replace the wires
because the first strand or two have fatigued and are protruding where the
wire goes round the pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal. However I do not
know how many years thee wires have been in service. If using this wire to
go round a pulley make sure the pulley is as large diameter as possible.

7 x 19 would be more flexible for running gear and because the individual
strands are thinner this wire would corrode more rapidly.

Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application,
not for boats.

Standing rigging these days is normally 1 x 19 SS wire. This is a single
strand containing 19 wires and cannot be used where any flexibility is
required



The 7 strand (6 over 1 as you note) is what is commonly used as
messenger or guy wire for "telephone" cable. It's what you will get if
you cut down a telephone pole.