Hi, all. I'm back from the trip. I'll post a synopsis in another thread.

Lionheart's engine got FLOODED with seawater when we had her heeled to
port, hard, between West Palm Beach and Daytona Beach in 8' seas and
fantastic 25-30 knot winds!

I have an announcement to make.....

Lionheart had a dripless packing installed this past winter by her owner
who didn't want to fool around greasing her perfectly-great-working greased
packing gland. It was installed by a local boatyard with 40 years in the
business. Why they hooked up the water injection hoses not required to the
engine's waterlines is a mystery to me. It's not required under 12 knots
in sailboats. But they did......

A fitting for this purpose was installed with 1/2" hose directly from the
water line coming out of the Perkins 4-108 to the fitting on the dripless.
Mistake NUMBER ONE. Our heeling hard to port exposed what has been going
on since its installation.

Water BACKS UP through this hose into the water lines coming out of the
engine to the waterline's anti-siphon break in the exhaust system, filling
the lines, exhaust waterbox muffler, and the lower-than-the-waterline
engine's exhaust system, backing up into the exhaust loop until it
eventually, slowly levels itself with the seawater level outside the boat.
The whole thing is OVERFLOWING with seawater. If we took the exhaust hose
off the waterbox muffler, water trickled out, continuously, into the bilge.

The Perkins suffered massive flooding of 3 of her 4 cylinders somewhere
between West Palm Beach and the treacherous Ponce De Leon Inlet at
Titusville. It was completely hydrolocked. We called Towboat/US who
dispatched a 200hp Johnson outboard towboat, immediately. But, alas, the
ripping current coming OUT of Ponce coupled with the waves of this East
wind at 25-30 made it impossible to tow us. We had to sail into the inlet
on our own. Mindwracking is a good term...but we made it.

Towed to Daytona Marina and Boatyard, who recommended Cutter Doc owned by
J.R., we waited at their quay and he showed up quickly to pickle the
Perkins with his mysterious mixture of Marvel Mystery Oil and other mineral
oils and water absorbers. Have you seen pictures of the Exxon Valdez oil
spill? That's what we pumped out of the Perkins crankcase....sea water and
tar balls. Blackened diesel oil, by the way, never looks "milky" with
water in it. It looks NORMAL.

After pickling and pumping and pickling and pumping he got the crap out of
the engine and did a "few" oil changes. The pickling mixture was left in
the engine for several days to work off the crud. A final engine oil
change and 2 new injectors, cleaning out 2 other injectors and replacing
one cracked injector hold down that broke during the starting process and
she run like a clock. If you're thinking about replacing your Perkins with
some Jap engine....think about what was done to this one and it SURVIVED
UNSCATHED. It now runs as new, again....no bent rods, broken cranks, etc.

JR's initial idea was that we topped the loop, which in Lionheart goes WAY
above the waterline. I was skeptical. The exhaust comes out underwater
just sitting level and we put this outlet straight down with the loop
tilted 30-35 degrees heeled over....but that wasn't it.

After the mechanic left, I kept watching that damned water trickle for days
out of the muffler box with the exhaust hose removed. Drove me crazy!
Where's it coming from? I took the hose off the seacock and that valve was
sealing perfectly. Then I got to thinking about "recent modifications",
the new bearing. I took a visegrip and pinched off that hose to the
bearing and the trickling stopped......no more water running into the
submerged engine. I told the mechanic what I'd found and we agreed that
was "it", cancelling the expensive haulout, new holes in the hull for
exhaust outlet and leaving the underwater hole capped to flood the hull
later....yecch. I probably saved my captain $2K? He sure was a happy
camper when I told him about it back in Atlanta....(c;

WARNING - If you have a dripless bearing that has a water injection hose
that is only needed to blow the bubble out of the bearing when you've had
the boat out of the water....PUT A SHUTOFF VALVE IN THE HOSE TO STOP
FLOODING THE EXHAUST IN BETWEEN HAULOUTS!!

Just thought you'd all like to know....(c;

Larry....back online and the Pickled Perkins 4-108 runs like a clock on her
new injectors! Thank you to the Perkins engineers who overdesigned her.

No need to clamp it off, Just diconect it from the water system ,
bring it high on the center line above the waterline and leave it open
as a vent.


On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:16:39 -0000, Larry W4CSC
wrote:

Hi, all. I'm back from the trip. I'll post a synopsis in another thread.

Lionheart's engine got FLOODED with seawater when we had her heeled to
port, hard, between West Palm Beach and Daytona Beach in 8' seas and
fantastic 25-30 knot winds!

I have an announcement to make.....

Lionheart had a dripless packing installed this past winter by her owner
who didn't want to fool around greasing her perfectly-great-working greased
packing gland. It was installed by a local boatyard with 40 years in the
business. Why they hooked up the water injection hoses not required to the
engine's waterlines is a mystery to me. It's not required under 12 knots
in sailboats. But they did......

A fitting for this purpose was installed with 1/2" hose directly from the
water line coming out of the Perkins 4-108 to the fitting on the dripless.
Mistake NUMBER ONE. Our heeling hard to port exposed what has been going
on since its installation.

Water BACKS UP through this hose into the water lines coming out of the
engine to the waterline's anti-siphon break in the exhaust system, filling
the lines, exhaust waterbox muffler, and the lower-than-the-waterline
engine's exhaust system, backing up into the exhaust loop until it
eventually, slowly levels itself with the seawater level outside the boat.
The whole thing is OVERFLOWING with seawater. If we took the exhaust hose
off the waterbox muffler, water trickled out, continuously, into the bilge.

The Perkins suffered massive flooding of 3 of her 4 cylinders somewhere
between West Palm Beach and the treacherous Ponce De Leon Inlet at
Titusville. It was completely hydrolocked. We called Towboat/US who
dispatched a 200hp Johnson outboard towboat, immediately. But, alas, the
ripping current coming OUT of Ponce coupled with the waves of this East
wind at 25-30 made it impossible to tow us. We had to sail into the inlet
on our own. Mindwracking is a good term...but we made it.

Towed to Daytona Marina and Boatyard, who recommended Cutter Doc owned by
J.R., we waited at their quay and he showed up quickly to pickle the
Perkins with his mysterious mixture of Marvel Mystery Oil and other mineral
oils and water absorbers. Have you seen pictures of the Exxon Valdez oil
spill? That's what we pumped out of the Perkins crankcase....sea water and
tar balls. Blackened diesel oil, by the way, never looks "milky" with
water in it. It looks NORMAL.

After pickling and pumping and pickling and pumping he got the crap out of
the engine and did a "few" oil changes. The pickling mixture was left in
the engine for several days to work off the crud. A final engine oil
change and 2 new injectors, cleaning out 2 other injectors and replacing
one cracked injector hold down that broke during the starting process and
she run like a clock. If you're thinking about replacing your Perkins with
some Jap engine....think about what was done to this one and it SURVIVED
UNSCATHED. It now runs as new, again....no bent rods, broken cranks, etc.

JR's initial idea was that we topped the loop, which in Lionheart goes WAY
above the waterline. I was skeptical. The exhaust comes out underwater
just sitting level and we put this outlet straight down with the loop
tilted 30-35 degrees heeled over....but that wasn't it.

After the mechanic left, I kept watching that damned water trickle for days
out of the muffler box with the exhaust hose removed. Drove me crazy!
Where's it coming from? I took the hose off the seacock and that valve was
sealing perfectly. Then I got to thinking about "recent modifications",
the new bearing. I took a visegrip and pinched off that hose to the
bearing and the trickling stopped......no more water running into the
submerged engine. I told the mechanic what I'd found and we agreed that
was "it", cancelling the expensive haulout, new holes in the hull for
exhaust outlet and leaving the underwater hole capped to flood the hull
later....yecch. I probably saved my captain $2K? He sure was a happy
camper when I told him about it back in Atlanta....(c;

WARNING - If you have a dripless bearing that has a water injection hose
that is only needed to blow the bubble out of the bearing when you've had
the boat out of the water....PUT A SHUTOFF VALVE IN THE HOSE TO STOP
FLOODING THE EXHAUST IN BETWEEN HAULOUTS!!

Just thought you'd all like to know....(c;

Larry....back online and the Pickled Perkins 4-108 runs like a clock on her
new injectors! Thank you to the Perkins engineers who overdesigned her.

Sounds like your installer didn't understand the basics of
things installed underwater. Plumbing the injector director is fine
if you have a fresh water cooled engine. No good on a raw
water cooled engine. Might want to try and get some compensation
for your trouble.

Doug
s/v CAllista

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. I'm back from the trip. I'll post a synopsis in another thread.

Lionheart's engine got FLOODED with seawater when we had her heeled to
port, hard, between West Palm Beach and Daytona Beach in 8' seas and
fantastic 25-30 knot winds!

I have an announcement to make.....

Lionheart had a dripless packing installed this past winter by her owner
who didn't want to fool around greasing her perfectly-great-working
greased
packing gland. It was installed by a local boatyard with 40 years in the
business. Why they hooked up the water injection hoses not required to
the
engine's waterlines is a mystery to me. It's not required under 12 knots
in sailboats. But they did......

Not required, but nice. The constant flow of water down the stern tube
and out the cutlass bearing will flush out any grit and also help keep the
cutlass bearing healthier longer. A mechanic at Ribovich-Spencer told
me that. I would have installed the injection version but couldn't
get one for my size shaft/tube.

A fitting for this purpose was installed with 1/2" hose directly from the
water line coming out of the Perkins 4-108 to the fitting on the dripless.
Mistake NUMBER ONE. Our heeling hard to port exposed what has been going
on since its installation.

Water BACKS UP through this hose into the water lines coming out of the
engine to the waterline's anti-siphon break in the exhaust system, filling
the lines, exhaust waterbox muffler, and the lower-than-the-waterline
engine's exhaust system, backing up into the exhaust loop until it
eventually, slowly levels itself with the seawater level outside the boat.
The whole thing is OVERFLOWING with seawater. If we took the exhaust hose
off the waterbox muffler, water trickled out, continuously, into the
bilge.

Well known problem. This must be a raw water cooled engine. A vented
loop must be installed in the line to the injection fitting. Maybe a check
valve would work.

The Perkins suffered massive flooding of 3 of her 4 cylinders somewhere
between West Palm Beach and the treacherous Ponce De Leon Inlet at
Titusville. It was completely hydrolocked. We called Towboat/US who
dispatched a 200hp Johnson outboard towboat, immediately. But, alas, the
ripping current coming OUT of Ponce coupled with the waves of this East
wind at 25-30 made it impossible to tow us. We had to sail into the inlet
on our own. Mindwracking is a good term...but we made it.

Towed to Daytona Marina and Boatyard, who recommended Cutter Doc owned by
J.R., we waited at their quay and he showed up quickly to pickle the
Perkins with his mysterious mixture of Marvel Mystery Oil and other
mineral
oils and water absorbers. Have you seen pictures of the Exxon Valdez oil
spill? That's what we pumped out of the Perkins crankcase....sea water
and
tar balls. Blackened diesel oil, by the way, never looks "milky" with
water in it. It looks NORMAL.

Been there, done that. but not from the same situation as you.

After pickling and pumping and pickling and pumping he got the crap out of
the engine and did a "few" oil changes. The pickling mixture was left in
the engine for several days to work off the crud. A final engine oil
change and 2 new injectors, cleaning out 2 other injectors and replacing
one cracked injector hold down that broke during the starting process and
she run like a clock. If you're thinking about replacing your Perkins
with
some Jap engine....think about what was done to this one and it SURVIVED
UNSCATHED. It now runs as new, again....no bent rods, broken cranks, etc.

JR's initial idea was that we topped the loop, which in Lionheart goes WAY
above the waterline. I was skeptical. The exhaust comes out underwater
just sitting level and we put this outlet straight down with the loop
tilted 30-35 degrees heeled over....but that wasn't it.

After the mechanic left, I kept watching that damned water trickle for
days
out of the muffler box with the exhaust hose removed. Drove me crazy!
Where's it coming from? I took the hose off the seacock and that valve
was
sealing perfectly. Then I got to thinking about "recent modifications",
the new bearing. I took a visegrip and pinched off that hose to the
bearing and the trickling stopped......no more water running into the
submerged engine. I told the mechanic what I'd found and we agreed that
was "it", cancelling the expensive haulout, new holes in the hull for
exhaust outlet and leaving the underwater hole capped to flood the hull
later....yecch. I probably saved my captain $2K? He sure was a happy
camper when I told him about it back in Atlanta....(c;

WARNING - If you have a dripless bearing that has a water injection hose
that is only needed to blow the bubble out of the bearing when you've had
the boat out of the water....PUT A SHUTOFF VALVE IN THE HOSE TO STOP
FLOODING THE EXHAUST IN BETWEEN HAULOUTS!!

Just thought you'd all like to know....(c;

Larry....back online and the Pickled Perkins 4-108 runs like a clock on
her
new injectors! Thank you to the Perkins engineers who overdesigned her.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

Sounds like your installer didn't understand the basics of
things installed underwater. Plumbing the injector director is fine
if you have a fresh water cooled engine. No good on a raw
water cooled engine. Might want to try and get some compensation
for your trouble.


That's what I told Cap'n Geoffrey.....just hand them the bill and tell them
they are lucky it wasn't a new engine going in......

How awful....

Larry

Looks like your installer also ordered the wrong gland. pss seals are
available with or without the injection nipple.
Jared Crane

As I mentioned earlier, the injection feature is a good thing
in any case. It helps keep the sediment out of the stern tube and
helps extend the life of the cutlass bearing. That is assuming it
is installed correctly.

Doug
s/v Callista

"JayCeeCG" wrote in message
...
Looks like your installer also ordered the wrong gland. pss seals are
available with or without the injection nipple.
Jared Crane

That is assuming that the cutlass is mounted in the end of the stern
tube. Obviously wouldn't make a difference in a strut mounted
cutlass.

I also misspoke about raw vs fresh water coolong. The problem
can occur in either case if you have a mixing elbow type exhaust.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
As I mentioned earlier, the injection feature is a good thing
in any case. It helps keep the sediment out of the stern tube and
helps extend the life of the cutlass bearing. That is assuming it
is installed correctly.

Doug
s/v Callista

"JayCeeCG" wrote in message
...
Looks like your installer also ordered the wrong gland. pss seals are
available with or without the injection nipple.
Jared Crane

I guess I missed something but what is the difference if you leave the sea
cock to the engine open or have this line to the packing. I always expect
to leak some water by the pump but expect the vented loop to break the
siphon. It is mounted high above the water line to prevent the flooding the
engine. Now if the vented loop is below the water line or if it is plugged
then all bets are off.

One thing to think about is if the shaft was turning without the motor
running the seal could actually be a small pump and be pumping water back
into the engine via the tube. It would not be a very efficient pump but
might develop enough head to overcome the level difference on the vented
loop especially if you are healed over. If that happens it will flood the
engine.

When I ran a PSS seal on a sailboat I wondered about that so I got the
ventless/tubeless one. One disadvantage to the tubeless one is that you
need to burp the seal to get the air out. Kind-a ends thoughts of a dry
bilge. Burping would be a real pain on my current boat. Currently I am
real happy with the new TFE packing material using a standard stuffing box.

Perhaps someone who has a PSS seal could disconnect the tube at the pump and
hold it at water level. Block the end at the raw water pump and run the
engine in gear at a shaft speed similar to running at hull speed without
engine and out of gear. See if you get any pumping action. If so raise the
tube end higher and measure the elevation at which the surging stops. If
you get a couple of inches you are probably ok. If you get more then that I
would suggest not sailing out of gear without the engine running. Put it in
reverse and consider using the tube as a vent to allow the air to escape.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
That is assuming that the cutlass is mounted in the end of the stern
tube. Obviously wouldn't make a difference in a strut mounted
cutlass.

I also misspoke about raw vs fresh water coolong. The problem
can occur in either case if you have a mixing elbow type exhaust.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
As I mentioned earlier, the injection feature is a good thing
in any case. It helps keep the sediment out of the stern tube and
helps extend the life of the cutlass bearing. That is assuming it
is installed correctly.

Doug
s/v Callista

"JayCeeCG" wrote in message
...
Looks like your installer also ordered the wrong gland. pss seals are
available with or without the injection nipple.
Jared Crane

"Rick & Linda Bernard" wrote in
:

I guess I missed something but what is the difference if you leave the
sea cock to the engine open or have this line to the packing. I
always expect to leak some water by the pump but expect the vented
loop to break the siphon. It is mounted high above the water line to
prevent the flooding the engine. Now if the vented loop is below the
water line or if it is plugged then all bets are off.

If the impeller seals well, it blocks water from going past it until it
turns when the engine comes on. I don't think I've ever seen a regularly-
maintained (replaced) impeller allow enough water past itself to make any
difference, certainly not filling up the exhaust system. But closing the
seacock is always a good idea, if only a pain in the ass. There's no
"vented loop" between the seawater intake to the cooling system and the
water pump. If there were, the pump would never prime as the impeller
pumps aren't self-priming without seawater pressure trying to push through
them. That's why outboard motor impellers are located in the foot
underwater.


One thing to think about is if the shaft was turning without the motor
running the seal could actually be a small pump and be pumping water
back into the engine via the tube. It would not be a very efficient
pump but might develop enough head to overcome the level difference on
the vented loop especially if you are healed over. If that happens it
will flood the engine.

Good point.


When I ran a PSS seal on a sailboat I wondered about that so I got the
ventless/tubeless one. One disadvantage to the tubeless one is that
you need to burp the seal to get the air out. Kind-a ends thoughts of
a dry bilge. Burping would be a real pain on my current boat.
Currently I am real happy with the new TFE packing material using a
standard stuffing box.

I suspect the reason we got the tubed model is because you'd have to be a
circus contortionist weighing 80 pounds to hang upside down to get back to
where this rubber boot is to burp it. Amel Sharki's engine room is DEEP!
And there are many places a fat WASP just doesn't fit...(c;


Perhaps someone who has a PSS seal could disconnect the tube at the
pump and hold it at water level. Block the end at the raw water pump
and run the engine in gear at a shaft speed similar to running at hull
speed without engine and out of gear. See if you get any pumping
action. If so raise the tube end higher and measure the elevation at
which the surging stops. If you get a couple of inches you are
probably ok. If you get more then that I would suggest not sailing
out of gear without the engine running. Put it in reverse and
consider using the tube as a vent to allow the air to escape.


I solved the problem and kept the injection. It simply has an inline water
valve to open when she comes out of yard on her sea trial, which can be
shut off and forgotten like the tubeless one after that.

Larry

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Rick & Linda Bernard" wrote in
:

I guess I missed something but what is the difference if you leave the
sea cock to the engine open or have this line to the packing. I
always expect to leak some water by the pump but expect the vented
loop to break the siphon. It is mounted high above the water line to
prevent the flooding the engine. Now if the vented loop is below the
water line or if it is plugged then all bets are off.

If the impeller seals well, it blocks water from going past it until it
turns when the engine comes on. I don't think I've ever seen a regularly-
maintained (replaced) impeller allow enough water past itself to make any
difference, certainly not filling up the exhaust system. But closing the
seacock is always a good idea, if only a pain in the ass. There's no
"vented loop" between the seawater intake to the cooling system and the
water pump.

Yes - the vented loop is normally after the heat exchanger and just prior to
the exhaust elbow. Correct - a vented loop before the pump would cause
problems.

If there were, the pump would never prime as the impeller
pumps aren't self-priming without seawater pressure trying to push through
them. That's why outboard motor impellers are located in the foot
underwater.


One thing to think about is if the shaft was turning without the motor
running the seal could actually be a small pump and be pumping water
back into the engine via the tube. It would not be a very efficient
pump but might develop enough head to overcome the level difference on
the vented loop especially if you are healed over. If that happens it
will flood the engine.

Good point.


When I ran a PSS seal on a sailboat I wondered about that so I got the
ventless/tubeless one. One disadvantage to the tubeless one is that
you need to burp the seal to get the air out. Kind-a ends thoughts of
a dry bilge. Burping would be a real pain on my current boat.
Currently I am real happy with the new TFE packing material using a
standard stuffing box.

I suspect the reason we got the tubed model is because you'd have to be a
circus contortionist weighing 80 pounds to hang upside down to get back to
where this rubber boot is to burp it. Amel Sharki's engine room is DEEP!
And there are many places a fat WASP just doesn't fit...(c;


Perhaps someone who has a PSS seal could disconnect the tube at the
pump and hold it at water level. Block the end at the raw water pump
and run the engine in gear at a shaft speed similar to running at hull
speed without engine and out of gear. See if you get any pumping
action. If so raise the tube end higher and measure the elevation at
which the surging stops. If you get a couple of inches you are
probably ok. If you get more then that I would suggest not sailing
out of gear without the engine running. Put it in reverse and
consider using the tube as a vent to allow the air to escape.


I solved the problem and kept the injection. It simply has an inline
water
valve to open when she comes out of yard on her sea trial, which can be
shut off and forgotten like the tubeless one after that.


There are other issues that may cause an air bubble. A diver cleaning the
prop. A broach on a windy day. and there are probably a few others that I
can't think of.

I was always carefull to always burp my PSS but I did hear of someone that
ran one with a air bubble. I made such a racket that they shut down the
engine to figure out what was wrong. Burped the unit and everything ran
fine after that.



Larry