Larry wrote:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty], however, to eradicate Jewish
traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit
of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the
people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and
Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

Now, tell us all how that doesn't mean anything like what THAT SAYS.....

They'd kill us ALL if they could....and are little by little by
little....

One of the most refreshing things about Atheism is being able to step
OUT of the REAL darkness, the shroud of religion, into the REAL light,
seeing what a sham all this religious bull**** and murder and
brainwashing really is.....


No, let's look at the actual actions of the religions and extremists,
whether Muslim or Christian. Let stop any and all of them from
threatening innocent people. So when we find Christian kooks trying to
blow up buildings and kill innocent people we put them in jail or
execute them. When we find large groups of Islamic kooks trying to blow
up buildings and kill innocent people, like Al Qaeda, Hamas, and
Hezbollah, we do the same thing.

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen

So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen

So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?

No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen

So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?

No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law. The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen
So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?
No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law.

You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish
denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and
aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you
don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They
specifically put rationality above the Talmud.

The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?

The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

Stephen

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen
So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?
No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law.

You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish
denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and
aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you
don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They
specifically put rationality above the Talmud.

True - the "Modern Jews" and the Orthodox. the problem is the Orthodox
guys are the noisy ones who don't want their interpretation of the Law
changed.

The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?

The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.

As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the
law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must
obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem
youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage
made in Heaven.



Stephen
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.

That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Personally I believe people gravitate toward what they want to believe.
There are so many different denominations and religions conveniently
designed for any and all psychological weaknesses that finding one that
fits ones own is usually easy. The extremist murderers have murder in
them already and find a religion that encourages it.

So the solution is as I said at the beginning of this discussion, and
exactly as Israel, the US and all true democractic societies have done,
put rationality in charge of the country as best you can and make
religion conform to rationality. This is *exactly* why supporting
Israel is so important. We have to fight for this important advancement
in humanity everywhere we find it. If we don't we will lose it.

Incidentally, rationality will eventually destroy religion entirely,
given enough time, because of course, no religion really makes sense.

As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the
law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must
obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem
youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage
made in Heaven.

These are still the extremists among them. There are millions of
"moderate" Muslims living in the US and other democractic countries that
never create a stitch of conflict.

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426
:

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in
some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen



I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from
foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE!

The Taliban never attacked a single American. Hell, our CIA was the
reason, just like the Shah, they were in power in the first place.

I don't care if your country is ruled by a fire-breathing, 2-headed
dragon as long as he doesn't bother my country. That worked JUST FINE
for America until the Jews dragged us into European wars in the last
century.

"We can't do that" is nonsense. Let's see....take any non-warlord
country...hmmmm...Bahamas. Bahamas minds its own business, has no huge
military monster eating up its wealth, hands out no money to any other
country at its citizens' expense and not a single country on Earth
threatens Bahamas with war/terrorism/economic strangulation/etc.
Bahamas is not under any threat from Taliban, Islam, Jews, Buddists,
Iran, Saddam, Al Queda, North Korea, Communist China....noone. Why?
Because Bahamas minds its own business and threatens NOONE. Bahamas
doesn't take sides with every little conflict and doesn't FINANCE this
side or that side to make enemies with anyone. It's NEUTRAL, though
leans a bit towards the UK. What the hell would the USA do with all the
money it saved by NOT trying to be Israel's World Police Force?!

Yep, we should be exactly like Bahamas....NEUTRAL....selfishly
independent....

We wouldn't be the enemy of every despot on the planet worrying if he is
next for the CIA's death squads. We could travel and they'd say, "Oh,
you're from the Bahamas? You're OK in our book." Noone I can ever
remember burned a Bahamas flag in Effigy or threatened it. Bahamas is
everybody's friend!

Larry wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426
:

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in
some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen



I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from
foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE!


All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Larry wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426
:

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in
some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen



I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from
foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE!


All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Stephen


Here here.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com