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Unconditionally stable sailboats
My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I
learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. That is incredibly good news, for once yacht designers find this out, once boat builders commit themselves to building only catamarans, once legislation is passed forbidding the purchase of any boat but a catamaran one sailboat will ever again capsize. That is great news. Let's get on with the salvation of the sailing world. Unite!! |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Oh, this is very true! Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Rod |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Oh, this is very true! Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Jeff Morris wrote:
Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Except for the ones with positive flotation. DSK |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Jeff Morris wrote:
"Rod McInnis" wrote ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:27:30 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: Jeff Morris wrote: "Rod McInnis" wrote ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? I've been reluctant to enter this thread because of the significant contribution from the lunatic fringe. Still, for what it's worth: if you define "unconditionally stable" as meaning "unconditionally self righting from any start orientation while the structure is intact", there are several well-known examples. Perhaps the one that comes first to mind, is a trans-Atlantic rowboat. This had buoyant sponsons at either gunwale, but more importantly, raised flotation structures at bows and stern, so that it could not maintain a capsized orientation. This illustrates that flotation sufficient to prevent sinking is not enough for this classification. There must be a righting moment, which can originate with a mast head float, and buoyancy compartments and low CG keel mass but arranged so that the vessel will erect on the sea surface from any roll angle. This can be arranged for monohulls and multihulls. Sailors may not always like the features needed though.... Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
... Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? It was a joke, Armond. We gave up on rational discussion when Jax entered. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com If you can't say something nice, say something surrealistic. -Zippy |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
armand hammer, the comment was that two-hullers are so lost to this universe
that they will convince themselves that their precious training wheels are **unconditionally** stable, a statement so stupid as to defy comprehension. do's boys shore do have fraydie cat wives, donch dem? Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
brian, stay with the class. the class period after next you can go into your
science fiction and horse breeding on weightless space station stuff. please stay with the class for now, though. Jeff Morris wrote: "Rod McInnis" wrote ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? I've been reluctant to enter this thread because of the significant contribution from the lunatic fringe. Still, for what it's worth: if you define "unconditionally stable" as meaning "unconditionally self righting from any start orientation while the structure is intact", there are several well-known examples. Perhaps the one that comes first to mind, is a trans-Atlantic rowboat. This had buoyant sponsons at either gunwale, but more importantly, raised flotation structures at bows and stern, so that it could not maintain a capsized orientation. This illustrates that flotation sufficient to prevent sinking is not enough for this classification. There must be a righting moment, which can originate with a mast head float, and buoyancy compartments and low CG keel mass but arranged so that the vessel will erect on the sea surface from any roll angle. This can be arranged for monohulls and multihulls. Sailors may not always like the features needed though.... Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
We gave up on rational discussion when Jax entered.
no, jeffies, you gave up on rational discussion when you stated that catamarans are "unconditionally stable". |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:27:30 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: Jeff Morris wrote: "Rod McInnis" wrote ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? I have both a monohull and a cat. Love em both but they are two very different boats both because of the number of hulls and the size. But since the cat is trailerable, I don't have to worry about one of the main disadvantages, i.e., where to put it when it's not sailing, moored or anchored. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Mon, 24 May 2004 23:41:10 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote: On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:27:30 -0400, "Armond Perretta" wrote: Jeff Morris wrote: "Rod McInnis" wrote ... My, my, my but the things one can learn on a usenet group. Just recently I learned that cruising catamaran sailboats are unconditionally stable, that is stable under any and all conditions. Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? I've been reluctant to enter this thread because of the significant contribution from the lunatic fringe. Still, for what it's worth: if you define "unconditionally stable" as meaning "unconditionally self righting from any start orientation while the structure is intact", there are several well-known examples. Perhaps the one that comes first to mind, is a trans-Atlantic rowboat. This had buoyant sponsons at either gunwale, but more importantly, I'd be willing to bet that those fully enclosed life boats you see hanging off of freighters are also unconditionally stable. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... We gave up on rational discussion when Jax entered. no, jeffies, you gave up on rational discussion when you stated that catamarans are "unconditionally stable". I think this proves my point. Jax is so irrational that he didn't notice that I didn't comment at all on catamaran stability; it wasn't me that made the comment on "unconditionally stable" and I'm not sure what it means. I would guess, though, that Chris was talking about cat designs like the Prout which due to a very conservative design have a virtually perfect safety record: no capsizes, no sinkings, 5000 built, more circumnavigations than any other brand of sailboat. Frankly, while jax babbles about theory (getting it wrong, of course), makes up "statistics," and posts links about 40 year old designs and beach cats, I'm content that the actual number of modern cruising cats capsizing is less than 5 in the last 10 years or so, with well over 10,000 built. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
I have both a monohull ...
an AMF Puffer and a cat... a Venture 16 Love em both but they are two very different boats both because of the number of hulls and the size. But since the cat is trailerable, I don't have to worry about one of the main disadvantages, i.e., where to put it when it's not sailing, moored or anchored. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
I'd be willing to bet that those fully enclosed life boats you see
hanging off of freighters are also unconditionally stable. Steve so is a beachball, but the discussion was cruising catamarans. know what this is steviie? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
jeffies proves my point:
[nevermind jeffies motors around on a two-huller "because his wife is scared" no, jeffies, you gave up on rational discussion when you stated that catamarans are "unconditionally stable". I think this proves my point. Jax is so irrational that he didn't notice that I didn't comment at all on catamaran stability; it wasn't me that made the comment on "unconditionally stable" and I'm not sure what it means. I would guess, though, that Chris was talking about cat designs like the Prout which due to a very conservative design have a virtually perfect safety record: no capsizes, no sinkings, 5000 built, more circumnavigations than any other brand of sailboat. Frankly, while jax babbles about theory (getting it wrong, of course), makes up "statistics," and posts links about 40 year old designs and beach cats, I'm content that the actual number of modern cruising cats capsizing is less than 5 in the last 10 years or so, with well over 10,000 built. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
I'm
content that the actual number of modern cruising cats capsizing is less than 5 in the last 10 years or so, with well over 10,000 built. not many people beside jeffies consider a Hobie cat to be a cruising boat. Not many people beside jeffies consider 1950's to be "10 years or so" ago. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
On 25 May 2004 02:38:16 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say: jeffies proves my point: [nevermind jeffies motors around on a two-huller "because his wife is scared" And the problem with this approach is . . . ? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
... "Armond Perretta" wrote in message ... Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? It was a joke, Armond. We gave up on rational discussion when Jax entered. Hey! You missed that he started it. Who entered later?? :{)) L8R Skip, still here, but moving inexorably toward cutting the cord -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig http://tinyurl.com/384p2 "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends." - James S. Pitkin |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Please learn how to follow a thread.
that's what I said, steveie. while you were wandering about in some deluded fog about rowboats crossing the ocean, the rest of the thread was talking about stupid statements made regarding the stability of cruising catamarans. The part I responded to was about trans-atlantic rowboats and other possibly unconditionally stable boats. You snipped so much you forgot what the topic was. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
[nevermind jeffies motors around on a two-huller "because his wife is
scared" And the problem with this approach is . . . ? you missed the point, steve dan. jeffies -- like a high percentage of training wheels drivers -- *say* it is "the wife" who is scared, it is in fact the boat owner who is terrified. I learned that at the grade school dinner table from a man -- my father -- with long term experience in the industry. when a man is scarred to death of a boats, but doesn't wish to admit it for fear of seeming unmanly, he will go to HUGE lengths to cover his tracks. Including stupid things such as a cruising catamaran is "unconditionally stable". |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Hey! You missed that he started it. Who entered later?? :{))
and did you notice just how many manly men posted that, yup a catamaran IS indeed stable in all and every condition? scared men will say some really unusual things. I know a two-huller who insists that sailing in winds above 19 knots is unsafe, always. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... jeffies proves my point: [nevermind jeffies motors around on a two-huller "because his wife is scared" The reason my wife likes a catamarans is that she loves to sail 50% faster than all the lead draggers. While we're on the subject, when's the last time you took your wife sailing? Oh, right, she's afraid to be in the same room as you! Poor jaxie, so jealous that I was able to spend a year cruising with my family, while he need court supervision to see his. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Yeh, we're really scared ... that's why we always have such big smiles reaching
along at 12 knots. And speaking of scared, weren't you the one who wanted to turn back because you couldn't find a buoy? And how about that MayDay you called to the CG in Long Island Sound because the wind was light and the engine was running a bit hot? "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... [nevermind jeffies motors around on a two-huller "because his wife is scared" And the problem with this approach is . . . ? you missed the point, steve dan. jeffies -- like a high percentage of training wheels drivers -- *say* it is "the wife" who is scared, it is in fact the boat owner who is terrified. I learned that at the grade school dinner table from a man -- my father -- with long term experience in the industry. when a man is scarred to death of a boats, but doesn't wish to admit it for fear of seeming unmanly, he will go to HUGE lengths to cover his tracks. Including stupid things such as a cruising catamaran is "unconditionally stable". |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Tuesday 25 May 2004 1:19 pm in rec.boats.cruising Jeff Morris wrote:
Yeh, we're really scared ... that's why we always have such big smiles reaching along at 12 knots. And speaking of scared, weren't you the one who wanted to turn back because you couldn't find a buoy? And how about that MayDay you called to the CG in Long Island Sound because the wind was light and the engine was running a bit hot? Please stop feeding this idiot. He sails a small dingy and would not know a cruising yacht if it bit him on the ankle. Just plonk him into your killfile and enjoy the quiet life. The nature of trolls is that they deliberately pick silly fights, which is a form of attention seeking. Just ignore him and he might find somewhere else to play. -- My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently deleted. Send only plain text. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Mon, 24 May 2004 18:32:30 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote: Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Or sitting in the showroom, according to the sales pimp. Unlike one's credit rating when considering a purchase. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On Tue, 25 May 2004 11:49:57 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote: People of both sexes are unwilling to admit that they are scared of various things. I'd venture to say that everyone is afraid of something. With some people it is a boat that heels. So what? I'm scared of spiders :-/ Cheers! Remco |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Bravery is doing something even though you are scared. You get no
points for doing anything that doesn't scare you. I have done things others said later were brave. They were wrong. I did things a mite more dangerous this very moment that improved the chance of my ass still being alive 30 minutes late. Anyone who sails, or races vehicles, or climbs mountains or flies airplane, on bravery/courage is absolutely sure to crash and crash soon. running on courage means you are running beyond your known capability. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
In some cultures, saying that the wife is scared is called 'saving
face'. some call that "saving face" while others call it "lying through one's teeth". in any event, claiming that one's own fears define the physical reality of the rest of the world is specious. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
People of both sexes are unwilling to admit that they are scared of
various things. I'd venture to say that everyone is afraid of something. With some people it is a boat that heels. So what? no problem .... as long as they don't make some truly stupid remark -- such as catamarans have unconditional stability -- to cover their tracks, for some newbie might believe them and the newbie then endangers himself/herself because they thought they heard a truth. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
And how about that MayDay you called to the CG in Long
Island Sound because the wind was light and the engine was running a bit hot? that was no frickin mayday and the engine wasn't really running hot. I (tried) to call the CG because the fraudulent hired "captain" had shut down the engine, tied down the sails and insisted a tow be dispatched (he wanted to get on another boat he thought there might be girl and/or women onboard [he was later thown off that boat -- much equipment broken) amid serious recriminations). I got on the radio because neither the "captain" nor the owner were able to work either radio after nearly 30 minutes of trying. btw, when we finally were towed in I suddently remembered a business meeting I had to prepare for three days hence and left, walking to the nearest train back home. not the same, jeffies, as driving training wheels "because the wife is scared". |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
He sails a small dingy and would not
know a cruising yacht if it bit him on the ankle. my longest trip last year was 1,800 miles. How about you? Longest trip last year in my own boat was 600 miles. How about you? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
The reason my wife likes a catamarans is that she loves to sail 50% faster
than all the lead draggers. boy do you have her hoodwinked. the only time a cruising cat does 50% faster than a mono is on a beam reach in 12 knot winds and no waves. upwind the cat's VMG is worse, downwind no better. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
While we're on the subject, when's the last time you took your wife sailing?
my ex-wife was afraid to ride the Staten Island ferry. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
you were obvilously waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over-served last night, steviee,
go sleep it off. Please learn how to follow a thread. that's what I said, steveie. while you were wandering about in some deluded fog about rowboats crossing the ocean, the rest of the thread was talking about stupid statements made regarding the stability of cruising catamarans. Sorry, you're wrong again. If you actually knew how to follow a thread you could tell that I didn't bring up the part about rowboats. I just responded to it. Now go back into your fog. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Actually our VMG is better than most monohulls. Even pointing 50 degrees true
we'll pass most of them. At any other point of sail, in just about any sea condition, its no contest. Of course, when your SA/Disp is over 20, and you have very low wave making resistance, and you don't loose effective sail area to heeling, you're going to blow away most other boats. Even running, we've been over 12 knots without flying a chute. You should try a cat sometime, jaxie, if you're not afraid of going too fast. Of course, our boat is setup for long distance cruising - you can get the same hull without the twin diesels and about 1000 pounds lighter in the classic model; or if you want a real screamer, you can get it with 30% more sail, about 30% less weight, and daggerboards instead of fixed keels. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... The reason my wife likes a catamarans is that she loves to sail 50% faster than all the lead draggers. boy do you have her hoodwinked. the only time a cruising cat does 50% faster than a mono is on a beam reach in 12 knot winds and no waves. upwind the cat's VMG is worse, downwind no better. |
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