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Unconditionally stable sailboats
Jeff Morris wrote:
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message ... Unfortunately, the unconditionally stable position is with the mast pointed down. Monohulls are unconditionally stable when sitting on the bottom. Why does it usually seem that this subject is argued on an "either/or" basis. There are advantages to either approach. Is this really surprising to anyone here? It was a joke, Armond. We gave up on rational discussion when Jax entered. I don't read the JAX Daily, but I still think my question was within the realm of reasonable discussion. I sailed the '79 and '81 Multihull Race to Bermuda in a Newick Native, and 1 or 2 Marion races in plastic and wooden monohulls, and I had fun each and every time. Along the way I never quite understood why proponents on either side refused to "lighten up" and go with the flow. I would perhaps trade my 28 "get-the-lead-out" boat for an F-31 anytime, but I'm stuck in my ways and I continue to insist that neither is "superior" beyond a reasonable doubt. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
Waste of time, Steve.
Rehab only works if the individual in question is interested in rehab. Jax enjoys being a total, asshole, troll, with no other interest than a vain attempt to show up others as being greater incompetents or fools than himself. You'll note that fewer and fewer individuals are responding to his obvious "trolls", except to note that they are enjoying a good laugh at his expense (though I doubt his IQ is sufficient to realize this). You will note, that be it Jax's "Mayday" call or problems rounding Hatteras, etc., our friend Jax was never the person in charge, but, alas, only some "knowitall" deckhand who was great as a Monday night quarterback, but of no other or worthwhile value at the time. I fully expect to see a message from Jax saying "otn wrote []". To this I say "Jax ALWAYS writes []". otn Steven Shelikoff wrote: On 25 May 2004 15:02:36 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote: you were obvilously waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over-served last night, steviee, go sleep it off. Please learn how to follow a thread. that's what I said, steveie. while you were wandering about in some deluded fog about rowboats crossing the ocean, the rest of the thread was talking about stupid statements made regarding the stability of cruising catamarans. Sorry, you're wrong again. If you actually knew how to follow a thread you could tell that I didn't bring up the part about rowboats. I just responded to it. Now go back into your fog. It definitely seems like the rehab you were on during your welcome absense from the newsgroups didn't take. Time to try again. Steve |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
You should try a cat sometime, jaxie, if you're not afraid of going too fast.
I have seen many, many, many cruising cats on different waters. none were going *too* fast for me. In fact, most weren't going any kind of fast at all. Now, Stilletos and tri's -- like Corsairs -- do indeed go fast, but no one calls them cruising boats. Cruising cats are only marginally faster than cruising mono's, and cats are not safe in stormy seas. cruising cats are better suited for coastal cruising, and offshore work thoroughly planned around weather. cats can be tipped over by wind. cruising mono's can't. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
I would perhaps trade my 28
"get-the-lead-out" boat for an F-31 anytime, an F-31 is a screamer, but in no way should be considered an offshore cruiser. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
you were obvilously waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over-served last night,
steviee, go sleep it off. Please learn how to follow a thread. that's what I said, steveie. while you were wandering about in some deluded fog about rowboats crossing the ocean, the rest of the thread was talking about stupid statements made regarding the stability of cruising catamarans. Sorry, you're wrong again. If you actually knew how to follow a thread you could tell that I didn't bring up the part about rowboats. I just responded to it. Now go back into your fog. It definitely seems like the rehab you were on during your welcome absense from the newsgroups didn't take. Time to try again. Steve you were obvilously waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over-served last night, steviee, go sleep it off. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
You will note, that be it Jax's "Mayday" call or problems rounding
Hatteras, etc., our friend Jax was never the person in charge In addition to sailing my own boat, I have done some crewing. I have never seen any unusual trouble on my own boat, so have no stories to tell of them. Most boats I crewed on were just fine, thank you. One I didn't crew on -- because I walked off it before it set sail -- sank two weeks later 160 miles east of Hatteras. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
steve dan, you missed the irony of the statement. chickensquat guys blame "the
wife" for the fear, never taking responsibility for themself. that is where you get all that convoluted b/s about how a catamaran is "unconditionally stable". by all means, if something frightens you don't do it. I have purposely turned airplanes upside down in flight, but damned straight don't like to be on a ladder 2-1/2 stories up in the air. I stay off ladders that high, and never once blamed "the wife" for it. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... You should try a cat sometime, jaxie, if you're not afraid of going too fast. .... Cruising cats are only marginally faster than cruising mono's, Marginally? Perhaps - but its often a 25% margin. Sometimes 50%. If we're talking "cruising boats" they tend to stay below about 8 knots, while I've been above 12 knots a number of times. and cats are not safe in stormy seas. How so? The record says otherwise. cruising cats are better suited for coastal cruising, and offshore work thoroughly planned around weather. You can say that about lots of boats. The vast majority of mid-sized cruising boats, both monos and cats, are designed as coastal cruisers because that's what people actually do. That's what makes this argument particularly silly. And if you really want a "blue water" catamaran you can get a Prout - 5000 built, hundreds circumnavigations, thousands of long distance passages, zero capsizes. cats can be tipped over by wind. But, in fact, its only happened a few times to a modern cruising cat. I asked you to provide a link to such an event - you provided a number of links, but they were to the Iroquois, a small, 45 year old design that did indeed have problems, several beach cats, and a Rout du Rhum extreme racing tri. We're still waiting for you to prove your allegations. Frankly, I've been searching for such events for about 10 years and the list is pretty small. Most writers put the number at 3 or 4 in the last 20 years, depending on how you define "modern cruising cat." cruising mono's can't. That isn't really so. But certainly any weather that has the capability to flip a cat could also roll or sink a mono. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
On 27 May 2004 14:48:59 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say: steve dan, you missed the irony of the statement. chickensquat guys blame "the wife" for the fear, never taking responsibility for themself. If some guys are afraid of the water, and blame the wife, it does not logically follow that *all* guys who blame their wives are afraid of the water. No, really. You could look it up. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam" wrote in message
... On 27 May 2004 14:48:59 GMT, something compelled (JAXAshby), to say: steve dan, you missed the irony of the statement. chickensquat guys blame "the wife" for the fear, never taking responsibility for themself. If some guys are afraid of the water, and blame the wife, it does not logically follow that *all* guys who blame their wives are afraid of the water. No, really. You could look it up. Actually, the only person here that claims his wife is afraid of boats is Jax. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Cruising cats are only marginally faster than cruising mono's,
Marginally? Perhaps - but its often a 25% margin. Sometimes 50%. and often it is -10% or -25%. cats point for squat, meaning they go best on a beam reach. On a beam reach, cats do fine. unless, they are loaded for cruising. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
and cats are not
safe in stormy seas. How so? The record says otherwise. no, it doesn't. very few cats attempt to sail where storms might occur. there is agood reason for this. in sailing areas where storms are a potential, few cats sail. Off those that do, a higher % turn upside down than mono's. which out number cats by two orders of magnitude or great. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
cruising cats are better suited for coastal cruising, and
offshore work thoroughly planned around weather. You can say that about lots of boats sure, hunters, coronado's, west wight potters, grampians, hobie cats, macgregors (maybe), c&c's, etc. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
a Prout - 5000
built, hundreds circumnavigations, hundred's, eh? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
cats can be tipped over by wind.
But, in fact, its only happened a few times to a modern cruising cat. most cat owners are not as stupid as cat owners in the past. some are, of course, but most learned from prior experience. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
cruising mono's can't.
That isn't really so. But certainly any weather that has the capability to flip a cat could also roll or sink a mono. it certain is so. wind, and wind alone, can flip a cat. wind can not flip a mono. In fact, *each* degree of heel on a cat requires _less_ wind than the previous degree of heel. cat turn upside down at heel anglesof about 30*. cats are best suited for coastal cruising and voyages well planned around weather. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
If some guys are afraid of the water, and blame the wife, it does
not logically follow that *all* guys who blame their wives are afraid of the water. yes it does. guys who have wives afraid of the water are too embarrassed about it to do anything buy mumble. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... and cats are not safe in stormy seas. How so? The record says otherwise. no, it doesn't. very few cats attempt to sail where storms might occur. there is agood reason for this. in sailing areas where storms are a potential, few cats sail. Off those that do, a higher % turn upside down than mono's. which out number cats by two orders of magnitude or great. Given that there's only been about 4 cruising cat capsizes in the last 20 years, its a little hard to talk about "higher %" How many monos have sunk in the last 20 years? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... a Prout - 5000 built, hundreds circumnavigations, hundred's, eh? That's the claim. And all those cruising cats in the Caribbean got there on their own bottom. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Given that there's only been about 4 cruising cat capsizes in the last 20
years, its a little hard to talk about "higher %" with only 30 cruising cats out there, that is about 14% How many monos have sunk in the last 20 years? From winds? with about 10,000 monos out there 2 is about 0.02%. if you are thinking of boats sinking due to hitting the hits, there is no difference between cats and mono's. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
a Prout - 5000
built, hundreds circumnavigations, hundred's, eh? That's the claim... by whom? parralax *claims* to have a double E in physics, and Oral Roberts *claims* to be divinely inspired as well. would you belive anything either one says? ... And all those cruising cats in the Caribbean got there on their own bottom. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... cruising mono's can't. That isn't really so. But certainly any weather that has the capability to flip a cat could also roll or sink a mono. it certain is so. wind, and wind alone, can flip a cat. wind can not flip a mono. You're right. It only takes about 200 mph winds to flip a cat under bare poles. It is true that you can flip a cat by carrying full sail in 45 knots and then not paying attention. Its happens a lot to racing cats, but only once that I know of to a cruising cat. Of course, a monohull can sink from a clogged cockpit drain. In fact, *each* degree of heel on a cat requires _less_ wind than the previous degree of heel. cat turn upside down at heel anglesof about 30*. Totally wrong. You should read what you wrote very carefully. cats are best suited for coastal cruising and voyages well planned around weather. So are all but a handful of boats being built today. Despite all of your claims, a large number of cats are making long passages on a regular basis. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
It is true that you can flip a cat by carrying full sail in 45 knots and then
not paying attention. you can flip a cat in 15 knot winds, gusting to 25, if you are not careful. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
In fact, *each* degree of heel on a cat requires _less_ wind than the
previous degree of heel. cat turn upside down at heel anglesof about 30*. Totally wrong. You should read what you wrote very carefully. come on, jeffies. you *claim* to have an associates degree in liberal arts physics. that mean you *claim* to under the dynamics of wind againt a sail and how lever stability decreases as the lever grows shorter (due to the cat tipping, as in heeling). you also *claim* to understand what "end-plate effect" means, and most assuredly you *claim* to know that a cat has that huge wind sail (the tramp, deck, and house) exposed as it tilts. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Read what you said - its totally false. You claim to have graduated from high
school, but its looking doubtful. And its all meaningless, since you haven't produced a single case of a cruising cat capsizing. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... In fact, *each* degree of heel on a cat requires _less_ wind than the previous degree of heel. cat turn upside down at heel anglesof about 30*. Totally wrong. You should read what you wrote very carefully. come on, jeffies. you *claim* to have an associates degree in liberal arts physics. that mean you *claim* to under the dynamics of wind againt a sail and how lever stability decreases as the lever grows shorter (due to the cat tipping, as in heeling). you also *claim* to understand what "end-plate effect" means, and most assuredly you *claim* to know that a cat has that huge wind sail (the tramp, deck, and house) exposed as it tilts. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... Given that there's only been about 4 cruising cat capsizes in the last 20 years, its a little hard to talk about "higher %" with only 30 cruising cats out there, that is about 14% OK - Prout, 5000 built Fountaine Pajot - 1300 built Lagoon - about 1000 built Gemini - 800 plus dozens of companies that have built a hundred or more - my PDQ has 100 sisterships. There are lots of cats out there jaxie, you just see them where you are. How many monos have sunk in the last 20 years? From winds? with about 10,000 monos out there 2 is about 0.02%. Lots of monos sink, though wind may only be one of several contributing causes. If a mono is dismasted and the mast pokes a hole in the hull, did it sink from the wind or the water? Do we care? if you are thinking of boats sinking due to hitting the hits, there is no difference between cats and mono's. "Hitting the hits"? Sorry, I'm not familiar with that. A number of cats have survived with hull damage that would sink a monohull. This was one of the lessons learned from early designs - cats are now built with collision bulkheads, watertight compartments, and sacrificial keels. When you do hear of a cat sinking, the story is usually that it stayed afloat for a day so that the crew had time to be rescued. A monohull with a serious leak will usually sink in a matter of minutes. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
Pfff, I've a triple E in physics....
yup, and it is just as real as parallax's double e in physics. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
jeffies, go to amazon.com and check out the books. you wanna convince yourself
that no way in hell can you die on a two-huller and are likely to die on a mono, go ahead. but for god's sakes STOP telling that to newbee's. they might believe you and injure themselves following your advice. now, about a cat need LESS wind force to tilt each and every next degree right up to the time it gets to about 30* tilt when it turns turtle, well that is a fact of physics (remember your claim to have an associate's degree in liberal arts physics?) Read what you said - its totally false. You claim to have graduated from high school, but its looking doubtful. And its all meaningless, since you haven't produced a single case of a cruising cat capsizing. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... In fact, *each* degree of heel on a cat requires _less_ wind than the previous degree of heel. cat turn upside down at heel anglesof about 30*. Totally wrong. You should read what you wrote very carefully. come on, jeffies. you *claim* to have an associates degree in liberal arts physics. that mean you *claim* to under the dynamics of wind againt a sail and how lever stability decreases as the lever grows shorter (due to the cat tipping, as in heeling). you also *claim* to understand what "end-plate effect" means, and most assuredly you *claim* to know that a cat has that huge wind sail (the tramp, deck, and house) exposed as it tilts. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
jeffies, of all those boats built very few went to sea, and even fewer went to
sea a second time. it seems you missed the "out there" part with only 30 cruising cats out there, that is about 14% OK - Prout, 5000 built Fountaine Pajot - 1300 built Lagoon - about 1000 built Gemini - 800 plus dozens of companies that have built a hundred or more - my PDQ has 100 sisterships. There are lots of cats out there jaxie, you just see them where you are. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"Hitting the hits"
"hitting the rocks" A number of cats have survived with hull damage that would sink a monohull really? now you are comparing a $300,000 cat with a ten year old Mac 26 When you do hear of a cat sinking, the story is usually that it stayed afloat for a day so that the crew had time to be rescued. you only hear that story "because the crew was rescued" (same as for mono's). when the boat goes down without a trace you hear nothing. A monohull with a serious leak will usually sink in a matter of minutes. and a cat that turns upside down due to a wind gust usually kills the crew. very few boats sink "out there" jeffies, but as a percentage of boats "out there" by hull type, cats are disabled and/or sink at a higher % rate than mono's. And if you compare $ spent to buy the boat, cats REALLY sink at a hugely higher rate. cats need to watch the weather (and weather season) and they need to stay close enough to shore to dive in should nasty weather be a coming. btw, how many cruising cats did you say you know of that have round Cape Horn? How about from east to west? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... jeffies, go to amazon.com and check out the books. OK, jaxie. What books? I like "Cruising in Catamarans" by Charles Kanter. He says, "There are only four documented cases of capsizes of cruising catamarans while being cruised by owners or charters." you wanna convince yourself that no way in hell can you die on a two-huller and are likely to die on a mono, go ahead. but for god's sakes STOP telling that to newbee's. they might believe you and injure themselves following your advice. Don't worry - I think all the newbies understand your point of view perfectly well. now, about a cat need LESS wind force to tilt each and every next degree right up to the time it gets to about 30* tilt when it turns turtle, well that is a fact of physics (remember your claim to have an associate's degree in liberal arts physics?) I repeat - you are completely wrong. Read what you have have said very carefully. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... .... When you do hear of a cat sinking, the story is usually that it stayed afloat for a day so that the crew had time to be rescued. you only hear that story "because the crew was rescued" (same as for mono's). when the boat goes down without a trace you hear nothing. Its the old "you never hear about the the ones that just disappeared" argument. That odd, we do hear about monohulls that "go missing," but we never hear about cats. A monohull with a serious leak will usually sink in a matter of minutes. and a cat that turns upside down due to a wind gust usually kills the crew. Why don't you post a link to such an occurance? Cruising cats, not racers. very few boats sink "out there" jeffies, but as a percentage of boats "out there" by hull type, cats are disabled and/or sink at a higher % rate than mono's. Total nonsense. You haven't even provided a single instance of this happening. And if you compare $ spent to buy the boat, cats REALLY sink at a hugely higher rate. cats need to watch the weather (and weather season) and they need to stay close enough to shore to dive in should nasty weather be a coming. And an Irwin 32 never needs to consider the weather at all? btw, how many cruising cats did you say you know of that have round Cape Horn? How about from east to west? How many monohulls have gone around the world in 58 days? |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
And an Irwin 32 never needs to consider the weather at all?
no idea, I know no one with an Irwin 32 |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
How many monohulls have gone around the world in 58 days?
how many mono's "have gone around the world" in 358 days" there are -- right now -- several thousand mono's heading west around the world, as compared to four or five cats. There are zero point zero cats heading east around the world. there is a reasons for that. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
and a cat that turns upside down due to a wind gust usually kills the crew.
Why don't you post a link to such an occurance? Cruising cats, not racers. JEFFIES!! for the kriste's sake!! mono's are not capabable of capasizing due to winds alone. mono's *require* a special set of circumstance with ----- waves ----- to turn upside down. cats -- on the other hand -- can and do flip over due to wind alone. |
Unconditionally stable sailboats
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Unconditionally stable sailboats
reemo writes:
From: Remco Moedt Date: 5/29/2004 3:16 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: On 28 May 2004 14:35:23 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote: Pfff, I've a triple E in physics.... yup, and it is just as real as parallax's double e in physics. "Wooosh" and the rest of the world asks, WTF? |
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