On 18 May 2004 23:51:54 GMT, (Quest0029) wrote:

If this doesn't appeal to you, if you only seek the
pleasures of a completely protected bay, then maybe a mac is the right boat for
you.

and you're not a MAN who sails a manly
REAL sailboat in manly deep waters under
the threat of mansize weather conditions.

Personally, I let the wife helm. I prefer to tweak the sheets, and
she's quite a capable sailor by her own rights, esp. in 30 knots or
so. But your implied insult is noted and discounted. Fact is, whether
you are Caspar Milquetoast or possess six testicles, bad weather in an
inappropriate boat will drown you indiscriminantly. The kayak with
radar is safer than the brigantine without in a fog-bound shipping
lane...and not all boats, as with all sailors, are created anywhere
near equal. Manliness or its absence has zip to do with it.

R.

rhys wrote:
..... one more sailboat,
even a Macgregor, instead of one more jetski, has *got* to be the
lesser of two evils, wouldn't you agree?

Oh yes, most definitely.


I try not to sneer at trimarans and cats, either, because they provide
a *different*, but equally valid and perfectly enjoyable alternative
to my preferred monohull. Where I tend to get snotty is on the issue
of seaworthiness: if you accept that a cat with a big flat sliding
glass door on its bridge is going to have issues in a following sea,
then you understand my objections are not to catamarans, but to
catamarans that want to be patio sunrooms. South Africa builds some
apparently incredibly tough blue-water cats (they'd have to, given the
conditions there), and while I'd personally have to learn to sail 'em,
I'd let the brother buy one.

Over a Macgregor, even.

Oh c'mon, we all know in our heart of hearts that *no* multihull can
ever be really seaworthy, right

Anyway, there are more than one or two monohulls better suited to be
dockside tiki bars than sailing vessels, so it doesn't bother me that
some multihulls have the same issues. The basic point, as I see it, is
to understand the capabilities of your vessel and to know how to make
her perform. A Mac26X owner who is convinced that his boat is as stable
as a deep keel boat, and has the same windward performance as a J-24,
can plane under sail, and 'round Cape Horn with ease, falls short of
this IMHO. BTW my friends who have owned these boats did not generally
fall into this category.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Wed, 19 May 2004 06:56:31 -0400, DSK wrote:



Anyway, there are more than one or two monohulls better suited to be
dockside tiki bars than sailing vessels, so it doesn't bother me that
some multihulls have the same issues.

Many of which have a lot of vowels in their names, IMHO. G


The basic point, as I see it, is
to understand the capabilities of your vessel and to know how to make
her perform. A Mac26X owner who is convinced that his boat is as stable
as a deep keel boat, and has the same windward performance as a J-24,
can plane under sail, and 'round Cape Horn with ease, falls short of
this IMHO. BTW my friends who have owned these boats did not generally
fall into this category.

Exactly.

R.

"rhys" wrote in message
...

I try not to sneer at trimarans and cats, either, because they provide
a *different*, but equally valid and perfectly enjoyable alternative
to my preferred monohull. Where I tend to get snotty is on the issue
of seaworthiness: if you accept that a cat with a big flat sliding
glass door on its bridge is going to have issues in a following sea,
then you understand my objections are not to catamarans, but to
catamarans that want to be patio sunrooms.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with "flat sliding doors" since I've never
heard of a failure of one. Or are you defining "seaworthiness" as something
that "looks proper" as opposed to something that has been proven safe with a
perfect safety record?

Actually, I consider the door to be a major safety feature since you don't have
to climb down a ladder to "go below." Modern cruising cats don't have a problem
with seas breaking in the cockpit because the sterns are quite bouyant and lift
easily. In many cats the door is almost amidships, so its rather unlikely to be
tested even in the worst conditions. And the cockpit drains are usually 3 inch
scuppers that drain directly below.

I know that traditionally, large comfortable cockpits are not considered the
safest for long passages, but they really aren't that bad on a cat.


South Africa builds some
apparently incredibly tough blue-water cats (they'd have to, given the
conditions there), and while I'd personally have to learn to sail 'em,
I'd let the brother buy one.


You'd figure it out real quick.

Or are you defining "seaworthiness" as something
that "looks proper" as opposed to something that has been proven safe with a
perfect safety record?

jeff, catamarans do not hardly have "a perfect safety record". They in fact
sink all over the place. *some* catamarans do not sink, but most certainly
catamarans sink at a much higher rate than mono's.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Or are you defining "seaworthiness" as something
that "looks proper" as opposed to something that has been proven safe with a
perfect safety record?

jeff, catamarans do not hardly have "a perfect safety record". They in fact
sink all over the place. *some* catamarans do not sink, but most certainly
catamarans sink at a much higher rate than mono's.

Modern cruising catamarans, over 35 feet and used for cruising, have a near
perfect safety record, especially with regard to sinking. You'd be hard pressed
to find more than a handful of incidents in the last 10 years. To compare their
record to monohulls is laughable. Get real, jaxie, this is just another one of
you blatant lies! Why don't you show us a statistic, or are you going to spin
some yarn about how an "expert" told you so in a bar?

On Thursday 20 May 2004 1:05 am in rec.boats.cruising JAXAshby wrote:

Or are you defining "seaworthiness" as something
that "looks proper" as opposed to something that has been proven safe with
a perfect safety record?

jeff, catamarans do not hardly have "a perfect safety record". They in
fact
sink all over the place. *some* catamarans do not sink, but most
certainly catamarans sink at a much higher rate than mono's.

BULL****.
Yet another idiot claim from our resident clown.

--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

BULL****.
Yet another idiot claim from our resident clown.

check it out, yo-yo. catamarans "out there" sink at an unethical rate as
compared to mono's.

sorry, but you training wheels guys are putting your families in danger. go in
a corner and pray for forgiveness.

Modern cruising catamarans, over 35 feet and used for cruising, have a near
perfect safety record, especially with regard to sinking. You'd be hard
pressed
to find more than a handful of incidents in the last 10 years. To compare
their
record to monohulls is laughable.

compare the Iroquois owner's list to see just how many Iroquiois catamarans
sank of the total number made. The % is not unusual in the context of
catamarans taken "out there".

On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:07:53 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote:

"rhys" wrote in message
.. .

I try not to sneer at trimarans and cats, either, because they provide
a *different*, but equally valid and perfectly enjoyable alternative
to my preferred monohull. Where I tend to get snotty is on the issue
of seaworthiness: if you accept that a cat with a big flat sliding
glass door on its bridge is going to have issues in a following sea,
then you understand my objections are not to catamarans, but to
catamarans that want to be patio sunrooms.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with "flat sliding doors" since I've never
heard of a failure of one.

I just find large openings and flat surfaces on small vessels of any
type inappropriate from a windage viewpoint and POTENTIALLY from a
structural viewpoint. I don't like large companionways and tons of
fixed ports in the coachhouse for the same reason. It's not
particularly scientific, but there's a reason submarines and
shuttlecraft don't have screen doors, either. G


Or are you defining "seaworthiness" as something
that "looks proper" as opposed to something that has been proven safe with a
perfect safety record?

Perfect? Stats, please. Plenty of catamarans have gone missing in the
ocean...we had one kill two sailors in Lake Erie three years ago near
here in a line squall when it flipped and flooded. If a catamaran went
down in the ocean, it would be hard to figure WHAT killed it, but a
large glass door in the cockpit can reasonably be assumed will let in
more following seas IF it fails. And engineering tells us everything
fails, eventually. Me, I would rather it was a couple of dropboards
YMMV. Some cats are more conservatively designed in this respect;
others go for the "sunroom effect".

Actually, I consider the door to be a major safety feature since you don't have
to climb down a ladder to "go below."

Different strokes, I guess. I have plenty of handholds so I
essentially "drop" the four feet or so into the cabin. Racing cats, of
course, look like '50s fighter jets, with "blister" windscreens and a
minimum of deck clutter.

Modern cruising cats don't have a problem
with seas breaking in the cockpit because the sterns are quite bouyant and lift
easily. In many cats the door is almost amidships, so its rather unlikely to be
tested even in the worst conditions. And the cockpit drains are usually 3 inch
scuppers that drain directly below.

I know that traditionally, large comfortable cockpits are not considered the
safest for long passages, but they really aren't that bad on a cat.

Well, as I've said, while my experience with them is limited, I've
seen a few that seemed a bit more alert, so to speak, to the possibly
of tons of green water landing in an inconvenient spot.


South Africa builds some
apparently incredibly tough blue-water cats (they'd have to, given the
conditions there), and while I'd personally have to learn to sail 'em,
I'd let the brother buy one.


You'd figure it out real quick.

So I understand. Perhaps I should start with a tri...there are a few
F28s locally that are supposed to do 20 kts.

R.