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Surveys
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. His boat. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? Does he check all engine linkages? Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Tell you something about rope you don't know? Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. --Vic |
Surveys
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is a cut-off point which is arguable but the fact is there exists a certain size and complexity boat under which a survery would not only be unnecessary but downright foolish. The 22-footer that Kafertoys traded for a VW engine is one such example. It would be downright stupid to hire a professional surveyor for such a boat. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. I applaud your knowledge and initiative. If it can be done with automobiles it can certainly be done with boats which tend to be simpler and more easily evaluated. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. His boat. Poppycock! Far more people die in automobiles than boats every day of the year, year in and year out. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. Even a novice sailor can learn how to survey (which is a stupid term to begin with) his potential purchase. Rather than calling it a survey how about we just say "check it out?" All the items to be checked can be researched from books about the topic and articles posted on the Internet. Again, keep in mind there is a cut-off point (I place it at about 30-feet and above on a system loaded vessel) at which a professional survey has merit. Smaller than that I maintain it is foolish NOT to learn how to check it out yourself. Everything you learn about it will sever you well in the future and it involves things you eventually will need to know so why put off the learning process any longer than necessary? But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Correct and NOBODY has more abiding conern for his vessel than the person who is buying it and will have to live with his decision to buy it. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? They should. Does he check all engine linkages? They should. Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. They should. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? They should. Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? They should. Tell you something about rope you don't know? They should. Does he do anything [you] WON'T do before you cast off? He should. Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? He should. Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Never - it's always as is where is. Not responsible for oversights. Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? Mostly. The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Exactly! Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. --Vic I'm as experienced as they come. I know more about what to look for in sailboats than ANY professional surveyor. Guaranteed! Ask your professional surveyor where he lives before you hire him. If he lives ashore then don't hire him. If he hasn't worked building boats don't hire him. He's pretty much clueless. His is book learning with little or no practical experience to back it up. You have to have BOTH to know your trade. I've lived aboard and have been around sailboats for 23 years now. I've worked as an MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) building boats for Irwin Yachts. My job was to install systems, test them to be sure they worked as ordered and then sign them off for the inspectors to evaluate them. Never had an inspector complain about my work. Was even sent out to the Caribbean a couple times on larger Irwins (I worked on the 43 line) to troubleshoot and repair warranty problems. The best place to gain knowledge of what works and what doesn't work, what succeeds and what fails is to spend lots of time around boats in general and at boatyards in particular. Ask questions. Be nosey. All the things that fail will be evident in a busy boatyard. What it takes to fix the failings can be discussed and viewed. Blisters, for example, there is a method to repair them that works and there are lots of methods that do not work and are just a temporary cover-up. You should know which is which. It is not difficult if you spend one or two months in a summer knocking around a busy boat yard to become more proficient than most surveyors who tend to miss more than they find. You can't really blame them because, for them, it is just a routine and boring job after a while. Many spend more time filling out papers than actually inspecting things. Much that they report on is nothing but a clever dodge or hedge written mostly to exonerate them should they fail to take note of something that fails soon thereafter. For you, contemplating the purchase of your new home or conveyance, it is more personal and you'd damned well better get it right. Nobody can get it as right as you can. Checking out boats is not rocket science. Learning how is easy. If you aren't interested in learning how then forget being a sailor because you don't have what it takes. Wilbur Hubbard |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. His boat. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? Does he check all engine linkages? Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Tell you something about rope you don't know? Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most expensive one of all. A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result. The survey report serves as the starting point for price re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your issues with a written survey report. The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other than the cost of the survey and haul out. On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and usually perform an oil analysis. Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy without a recent survey. |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:52:37 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most expensive one of all. A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result. The survey report serves as the starting point for price re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your issues with a written survey report. The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other than the cost of the survey and haul out. On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and usually perform an oil analysis. Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy without a recent survey. Informative. Thanks. --Vic |
Surveys
On Nov 23, 2:52�pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. �They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. �I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. �I trust myself. �I never burned myself once I knew used cars. �When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. �His boat. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. �Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? Does he check all engine linkages? Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Tell you something about rope you don't know? Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. �The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. �Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: �There is probably a certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and condition. � On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most expensive one of all. A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in a lifetime. � Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and weaknesses. �I have always learned something from every survey that I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result. The survey report serves as the starting point for price re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. � Very few owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your issues with a written survey report. The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. � If the purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other than the cost of the survey and haul out. On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: �One for the boat itself, and one for the engines. � The engine surveyor will perform compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and usually perform an oil analysis. Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy without a recent survey.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking questions don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake right. I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want. I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten. Mario |
Surveys
Vic Smith wrote:
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. His boat. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? Does he check all engine linkages? Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Tell you something about rope you don't know? Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. --Vic There are only two surveyors in my area and I've wasted money on both. The first is a fat lady that can't hardly get aboard let alone get into tight spots to check things. If you need an insurance survey, she is the one to get cause she won't find anything wrong. The second is one is decent around old fishing boats and other commercial craft but doesn't know diddly about sailboats. He did check the diesel with a temp gun looking for balanced output on the exhaust. No surveyors I know will comment on sails, rigging, or other misc. And when they write the report, it's written so they are not responsible for anything they say. Gordon |
Surveys
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. Definitely different for boat ownership. For example, if you desire insurance, you'll likely need a survey. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. Absolutely. His life relies on his transport. His boat. Absolutely, up to a point. Rigging for example... I can guess, but I don't have enough experience to know for certain, especially if you don't know when it was done last. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? No, but you can hire a diesel mechanic to do an engine survey. Typically, this isn't done, unless the engines are big/expensive. The key items can be checked by anyone... e.g., the overall look/feel/vibration (or lack) when running, the texture, smell, look of the oil (analysis is cheap - $30). Does it smoke when you start or smoke under load? Don't let the owner tell you "it's nothing." Does he check all engine linkages? All? In a limited, accessible way, sure. He's not going to climb into the engine compartment, to look at the connection to the trans. He'll try the gears and give you his impression. Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Definitely will/should comment on the electrics and electronics. Probably won't test harness anything. Either it appears to work or it doesn't... even to the point of saying the fuse it blown.. how come? Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Perhaps. Mine looked at the jibs without unfolding them, and he saw the main up. Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Standing rigging... yes. Other cables... doubtful. Tell you something about rope you don't know? If you ask. Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Not sure what you're asking... usually, they don't like to give an overall opinion during or right after the survey when you and the owner are standing there. They don't want a confrontation. Mine did... told me, "Buy this boat. I don't usually say this." The owner didn't hear him, so I went over and told him what he said. :-) Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Definitely going to comment on what he finds. Loose tabs? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? No guarantee/warranty... no way. Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? Definitely, but it's from someone who sees hundreds of boats a year. If you're going to buy a boat, you need to sail a couple of dozen before you can get a feel for what works for you. You also get USCG requirements confirmation, unsafe situations that are not necessarily obvious... after all, you're fairly motivated to buy it at this point. It's nice to have something in your face that you might otherwise discount. The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Yeah, the big deal with our houses appraiser was that he found the termite/dryrot/whatever damage that we already knew about, since it was disclosed in all instances. Then, he did a market analysis (surveyor does this also), which we argued with a couple of times and got it changed. IMHO the surveyor was right on the money every time I used one. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. The survey isn't that expensive... I paid between $10 and $14 per linear foot. Most surveyors have a minimum, so it's usually not worth it for dinghy. If you'd like to see my last survey, I'd be happy to email you one. --Vic -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:40:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking questions don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake right. I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want. I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten. Mario While it may be true that an interested and experienced buyer may do a more thorough inspection than a surveyor, if the potential buyer has "fallen in love" with the vessel, he will, perhaps unconsciously, overlook faults that an impartial surveyor will notice and report. The surveyor should be impartial - he should not stand to gain from either encouraging or discouraging the sale. Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:11:48 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Vic Smith" wrote in message .. . Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. Definitely different for boat ownership. For example, if you desire insurance, you'll likely need a survey. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. Absolutely. His life relies on his transport. His boat. Absolutely, up to a point. Rigging for example... I can guess, but I don't have enough experience to know for certain, especially if you don't know when it was done last. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? No, but you can hire a diesel mechanic to do an engine survey. Typically, this isn't done, unless the engines are big/expensive. The key items can be checked by anyone... e.g., the overall look/feel/vibration (or lack) when running, the texture, smell, look of the oil (analysis is cheap - $30). Does it smoke when you start or smoke under load? Don't let the owner tell you "it's nothing." Does he check all engine linkages? All? In a limited, accessible way, sure. He's not going to climb into the engine compartment, to look at the connection to the trans. He'll try the gears and give you his impression. Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Definitely will/should comment on the electrics and electronics. Probably won't test harness anything. Either it appears to work or it doesn't... even to the point of saying the fuse it blown.. how come? Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Perhaps. Mine looked at the jibs without unfolding them, and he saw the main up. Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Standing rigging... yes. Other cables... doubtful. Tell you something about rope you don't know? If you ask. Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Not sure what you're asking... usually, they don't like to give an overall opinion during or right after the survey when you and the owner are standing there. They don't want a confrontation. Mine did... told me, "Buy this boat. I don't usually say this." The owner didn't hear him, so I went over and told him what he said. :-) Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Definitely going to comment on what he finds. Loose tabs? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? No guarantee/warranty... no way. Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? Definitely, but it's from someone who sees hundreds of boats a year. If you're going to buy a boat, you need to sail a couple of dozen before you can get a feel for what works for you. You also get USCG requirements confirmation, unsafe situations that are not necessarily obvious... after all, you're fairly motivated to buy it at this point. It's nice to have something in your face that you might otherwise discount. The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Yeah, the big deal with our houses appraiser was that he found the termite/dryrot/whatever damage that we already knew about, since it was disclosed in all instances. Then, he did a market analysis (surveyor does this also), which we argued with a couple of times and got it changed. IMHO the surveyor was right on the money every time I used one. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. The survey isn't that expensive... I paid between $10 and $14 per linear foot. Most surveyors have a minimum, so it's usually not worth it for dinghy. If you'd like to see my last survey, I'd be happy to email you one. Thanks, that's enlightening. I'd like to see a real survey, and my address is real. I just check it occasionally. Or you might prefer to post it on the RBC website, maybe without the surveyor's name. Others might be interested in seeing it, and comparing it to what they've seen/paid for. Your call. If you send it to me I'll keep it private. --Vic |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote: Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker. |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett wrote: Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker. That could be tricky, right? Closed community and all. Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers That's in a wider community than boat sales. In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships! Recommendations are good though. --Vic |
Surveys
You'll note that doctors seldom treat their own family members.
-- Roger Long |
Surveys
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:07:28 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett wrote: Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker. That could be tricky, right? Closed community and all. Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers That's in a wider community than boat sales. In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships! Recommendations are good though. On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price. |
Surveys
"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com... On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:40:18 -0800 (PST), " wrote: because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking questions don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake right. I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want. I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten. Mario While it may be true that an interested and experienced buyer may do a more thorough inspection than a surveyor, if the potential buyer has "fallen in love" with the vessel, he will, perhaps unconsciously, overlook faults that an impartial surveyor will notice and report. The surveyor should be impartial - he should not stand to gain from either encouraging or discouraging the sale. Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:11:48 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Vic Smith" wrote in message . .. Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. Definitely different for boat ownership. For example, if you desire insurance, you'll likely need a survey. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. Absolutely. His life relies on his transport. His boat. Absolutely, up to a point. Rigging for example... I can guess, but I don't have enough experience to know for certain, especially if you don't know when it was done last. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? No, but you can hire a diesel mechanic to do an engine survey. Typically, this isn't done, unless the engines are big/expensive. The key items can be checked by anyone... e.g., the overall look/feel/vibration (or lack) when running, the texture, smell, look of the oil (analysis is cheap - $30). Does it smoke when you start or smoke under load? Don't let the owner tell you "it's nothing." Does he check all engine linkages? All? In a limited, accessible way, sure. He's not going to climb into the engine compartment, to look at the connection to the trans. He'll try the gears and give you his impression. Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Definitely will/should comment on the electrics and electronics. Probably won't test harness anything. Either it appears to work or it doesn't... even to the point of saying the fuse it blown.. how come? Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Perhaps. Mine looked at the jibs without unfolding them, and he saw the main up. Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Standing rigging... yes. Other cables... doubtful. Tell you something about rope you don't know? If you ask. Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Not sure what you're asking... usually, they don't like to give an overall opinion during or right after the survey when you and the owner are standing there. They don't want a confrontation. Mine did... told me, "Buy this boat. I don't usually say this." The owner didn't hear him, so I went over and told him what he said. :-) Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Definitely going to comment on what he finds. Loose tabs? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? No guarantee/warranty... no way. Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? Definitely, but it's from someone who sees hundreds of boats a year. If you're going to buy a boat, you need to sail a couple of dozen before you can get a feel for what works for you. You also get USCG requirements confirmation, unsafe situations that are not necessarily obvious... after all, you're fairly motivated to buy it at this point. It's nice to have something in your face that you might otherwise discount. The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Yeah, the big deal with our houses appraiser was that he found the termite/dryrot/whatever damage that we already knew about, since it was disclosed in all instances. Then, he did a market analysis (surveyor does this also), which we argued with a couple of times and got it changed. IMHO the surveyor was right on the money every time I used one. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. The survey isn't that expensive... I paid between $10 and $14 per linear foot. Most surveyors have a minimum, so it's usually not worth it for dinghy. If you'd like to see my last survey, I'd be happy to email you one. Thanks, that's enlightening. I'd like to see a real survey, and my address is real. I just check it occasionally. Or you might prefer to post it on the RBC website, maybe without the surveyor's name. Others might be interested in seeing it, and comparing it to what they've seen/paid for. Your call. If you send it to me I'll keep it private. --Vic Actually, it's on my photo website. Can't imagine why the surveyor would mind. He did a wonderful job. http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....caliburSurvey# -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
On 2008-11-23 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B said:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett wrote: Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale. And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker. We asked around the dock and found a surveyor that gently suggested a couple of times that the boat he was surveying might not serve the needs of the buyers. The ignored him, but got better deals because of what he found wrong. Oh, and they later agreed with his assessment. I'm told that's unusual behavior in surveyors. Some opine that doing that is unethical, but *I* paid for his services, so he's working for me. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Surveys
"Capt. JG" wrote
I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem. If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they sit. -- Roger Long |
Surveys
"Wayne.B" wrote
On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price. Ah, we agree again. I should have read the whole thread first. -- Roger Long |
Surveys
"Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem. If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they sit. -- Roger Long ============================= When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. |
Surveys
"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message ... trimmed some When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated. You're one of those socialists! What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs to decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product. Somebody else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR burden. From each according to his ability to each according to her needs. Karl Marx would be proud of you. I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily because he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged! Grow up, girl. Wilbur Hubbard |
Surveys
You want the surveyor working entirely for you and beholden only to you.
Typically, you agree on a price before the survey and then the estimated cost of fixing anything necessary to make the boat legal and safe is deducted if it is not something that can be clearly seen and accounted for at the time the price is negotiated. -- Roger Long |
Surveys
On Nov 24, 10:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:14:51 GMT, "Janet O'Leary" wrote: Only have the survey done on the boat you want. The results of the survey almost always come up with items that are negotiating points for the final sale price. Pay the surveyor the $400. He may find something that saves you substantially more than that on the sale price. The survey may also discover problems that will make you glad you spent $400 for the warning before walking away from a disaster. Amen. See "High Time" sections in my gallery for how we walked away from a VERY nice boat. The eventual buyer immediately spent (according to the selling broker, with whom we remained friends afterward, for many reasons) $10K on electrical fixes; the others he didn't know about. See my analysis, extremely - nay, overly - conservative on how much it would cost to remedy the many problems, one of which, very significantly, was loose tabbing - something which we had to remedy on our boat after the wreck. It was the opinion of the surveyor (a prior Morgan QC and Quality Control manager in the entire time of the production of our type of boat) that there had been a collision damage repair in the bow area based on the un-fair shape. Having done a wreck repair with a VERY significant section of damage, I know that it's not a biggie - but the fact that it wasn't faired to the shape, in retrospect, with our experience, would suggest that whoever did it wasn't the craftsman that the one who relaid our delaminations was. High Time was the idea source for several improvements we put in our boat, and in the end, perhaps, remedying the faults in that boat might have been much less than what we put into ours to bring ours to where it is today. So, it's all a crap shoot, and, unfortunately, if you don't have the depth of experience we've gained in doing our work, you can't possibly know. That's where a very thorough, critical (not to bust a deal, just to have the evil eye), surveyor can make your purchase - if not "safe" - at least fully informed... And, FWIW, we paid him to come across Florida from St. Pete to Ft. Lauderdale to do both (High Time and the one we bought) surveys, we valued his direct experience so much. The fact that he was universally recommended in St. Pete helped :{)) He, too, BTW, remains a friend. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at and "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Surveys
Janet O'Leary wrote:
When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? Never. The surveyor is hired by the buyer and responsible ONLY to the buyer. |
Surveys
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message anews.com... "Janet O'Leary" wrote in message ... trimmed some When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated. You're one of those socialists! What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs to decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product. Somebody else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR burden. From each according to his ability to each according to her needs. Karl Marx would be proud of you. I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily because he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged! Grow up, girl. Wilbur Hubbard Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short selling? The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the "true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock price will go down. Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the prospective buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller knows that there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that the buyer will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the survey expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and this helps reach the "true" price of the boat. That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc. This seems reasonable to me .. |
Surveys
"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
... "Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem. If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they sit. -- Roger Long ============================= When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. I think it's better for the buyer to pay for the survey. In my case, I paid for the survey, and the seller paid for the haul/wash/splash, which is about the same cost. Usually, the buyer pays both, but it's negotiated. You can do a lot ahead of a potential survey, by confirming lots of the stuff yourself. If you're confident that you've caught everything, aren't fooling yourself because you *want* the boat, and you don't have to worry about insurance, you don't need a survey. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:01:38 -0500, "Roger Long" said: Typically, you agree on a price before the survey and then the estimated cost of fixing anything necessary to make the boat legal and safe is deducted if it is not something that can be clearly seen and accounted for at the time the price is negotiated. That is the way it's generally done. However, if I were selling a boat I'd tell the buyer at the outset that the agreed price is the price regardless of what a survey finds. If he doesn't like the survey he can cancel the contract, but there will be no renegotiation of the price. That might have worked a few years ago, but nowadays, it likely won't fly. Maybe... you never know. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
... troll sh*t removed Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short selling? The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the "true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock price will go down. Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the prospective buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller knows that there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that the buyer will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the survey expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and this helps reach the "true" price of the boat. That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc. This seems reasonable to me .. It sounds reasonable, but it's not workable and isn't reality based. You need to pay for the survey yourself to ensure you get the information you need. The surveyor doesn't even want to see no less talk to the other party... just the one paying the bill. As I said, you can negotiate a lot of stuff. One possible thing would be to have the owner haul/splash. It's about the same amount. FYI, you might also want to avoid trolls. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
wrote in message
... On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:18:46 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Janet O'Leary" wrote in message ... "Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem. If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they sit. -- Roger Long ============================= When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. I think it's better for the buyer to pay for the survey. In my case, I paid for the survey, and the seller paid for the haul/wash/splash, which is about the same cost. Usually, the buyer pays both, but it's negotiated. You can do a lot ahead of a potential survey, by confirming lots of the stuff yourself. If you're confident that you've caught everything, aren't fooling yourself because you *want* the boat, and you don't have to worry about insurance, you don't need a survey. Until you try and get insurance... Which you will need to stay at most marinas... And you would be extremely foolish to be without, anyway. When a $3000 sailboat breaks free in a storm and hits a $750k sailboat, or several of them... There are many people who don't care about insurance, mainly because they don't put their boats in marinas. As I said, if you're going to need insurance, then you'll likely need to get a survey. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
On Nov 23, 1:51*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got. It was suggested that one can do their own survey. Let's eliminate boat newbies. *They need a surveyor. I always buy used cars. *I never take them to a mechanic, because I know my used cars. *I trust myself. *I never burned myself once I knew used cars. *When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons. That's why I learned all about used cars. I don't expect others to follow my path with cars. But a sailor is different than a typical car driver. His life relies on his transport. *His boat. An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself - maybe. *Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an experienced sailor. But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and rot than the typical surveyor. Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor typically do a compression test and oil analysis? Does he check all engine linkages? Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do. Does he point out a sail tear you can't see? Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust that you can't see? Tell you something about rope you don't know? Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off? Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot? Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection? Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get? The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part of the mortgage requirements some years ago. *The guy couldn't tell me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed plenty I saw. *Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to me no doubt. Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here. Might learn something. --Vic * for me it depends on what i am doing with the boat. if i am picking up a boat to reloft it and rebuild it i dont get a survey because im just gonna rip the boat apart and any rot will come to light. if i plan on doing some fixup and flip work i get a survey to find out if there are problems i have over looked and to see if the price is worth the headach. if i am buying a plastic boat i tend to not get a survey because i am almost obligated to rip the transom and house off of the boat and fix the rot issues. (never seen a plastic boat that didnt have rot issues in these places) If i am getting a boat to use with my students i dont get a survey because i am going to take the boat apart and rebuild it and each problem i run into i use as a teaching point. surveyers are best used when you are plunking down a bunch of cash and want to negotiate price. good surveyers can find problems that you and the seller may not have looked at (soft places next to the keel, rot under pipes, electrical problems, keel cooler problems, rot under the mast step, ETC.) steel boats i always get surveyed no matter the size, or what i am going to do with it. to much can hide under paint and i dont want to waste time kneedle gunning the entire hull if i dont have to. engines are another always have surveyed deal I want a list of all the stuff wrong with the power plant and a good mech on hand to let me know if i ought to pull it or fix it. I dont get electrical surveys done at all, ever. there is not a used boat on earth that does not need all the electrical ripped out and replaced. I tend to get anything over twenty feet looked at after i do a fix up and go to great lengths to have a clean bill when i am done. I have one set of eyes, it is valuable to me to have another set being critical of my work and to see that i have not overlooked something. for smaller boats i let the buyer get a surveyer to look it over and urge them to find one out of area. I have a good rep with the guys and gals in this area and that can cause problems if i want to make a honest deal, after all these folks know i want to sell the boat and i am friends with them so the trend is for them to give me the benifit of the doubt. some boats the best guy to hire is not a surveyer. rather a marine archetect would do you a better job. many old steel boats have been refit over the years and sometimes stability is comprimised or the boat is no longer able to be sailed in fresh water. some sailboats have to big of rig, to small a rig, wrong angles for standing rigging, bad rake, under sized sticks, whimpy mast steps, over all bad design, a bunch of other stuff that a surveyer will not catch. the archetects job is to run the numbers, find the flaws and let you know. the weakness of getting a survey or having an archetect go over things is that some folks consider them to be the last word, allow them to make decisions, or give opinions. not good when buying a boat you want advise and data not opinions. |
Surveys
"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message anews.com... "Janet O'Leary" wrote in message ... trimmed some When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated. You're one of those socialists! What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs to decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product. Somebody else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR burden. From each according to his ability to each according to her needs. Karl Marx would be proud of you. I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily because he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged! Grow up, girl. Wilbur Hubbard Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short selling? The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the "true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock price will go down. Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the prospective buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller knows that there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that the buyer will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the survey expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and this helps reach the "true" price of the boat. That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc. This seems reasonable to me .. You are very naive, then. Most smart sellers of a used product will state on the Bill of Sale something such as "as is, where is." A seller would be stupid to sell a used boat without such a disclaimer as he is in no position to offer any kind of a valid warranty or to haggle over it in court. In many states a seller is required by law to reveal any known safety defects in a product he is selling. As usual, however, the general rule is buyer beware as a seller can always claim and it's impossible to prove otherwise that he didn't know anything about any and all defects. In other words it is entirely up to you and yours to determine if your used product is a decent buy. Wilbur Hubbard |
Surveys
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:14:51 GMT, "Janet O'Leary"
wrote: When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. The buyer always pays for the survey because it is for their benefit. Janet, in all seriousness and with all due respect, if you are concerned about $400 you have no business even thinking about buying a boat or living on one. $400 and the purchase price are just the tip of the iceberg. If low cost housing is your top priority consider the rental or purchase of a mobile home. It would be *much* less expensive than owning a boat and have a lot more living space. |
Surveys
On 24 Nov 2008 11:12:02 -0600, Dave wrote:
That is the way it's generally done. However, if I were selling a boat I'd tell the buyer at the outset that the agreed price is the price regardless of what a survey finds. If he doesn't like the survey he can cancel the contract, but there will be no renegotiation of the price. And I would tell you to take a hike and keep your boat. |
Surveys
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:34:00 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: for me it depends on what i am doing with the boat. if i am picking up a boat to reloft it and rebuild it i dont get a survey because im just gonna rip the boat apart and any rot will come to light. if i plan on doing some fixup and flip work i get a survey to find out if there are problems i have over looked and to see if the price is worth the headach. if i am buying a plastic boat i tend to not get a survey because i am almost obligated to rip the transom and house off of the boat and fix the rot issues. (never seen a plastic boat that didnt have rot issues in these places) If i am getting a boat to use with my students i dont get a survey because i am going to take the boat apart and rebuild it and each problem i run into i use as a teaching point. surveyers are best used when you are plunking down a bunch of cash and want to negotiate price. good surveyers can find problems that you and the seller may not have looked at (soft places next to the keel, rot under pipes, electrical problems, keel cooler problems, rot under the mast step, ETC.) steel boats i always get surveyed no matter the size, or what i am going to do with it. to much can hide under paint and i dont want to waste time kneedle gunning the entire hull if i dont have to. engines are another always have surveyed deal I want a list of all the stuff wrong with the power plant and a good mech on hand to let me know if i ought to pull it or fix it. I dont get electrical surveys done at all, ever. there is not a used boat on earth that does not need all the electrical ripped out and replaced. I tend to get anything over twenty feet looked at after i do a fix up and go to great lengths to have a clean bill when i am done. I have one set of eyes, it is valuable to me to have another set being critical of my work and to see that i have not overlooked something. for smaller boats i let the buyer get a surveyer to look it over and urge them to find one out of area. I have a good rep with the guys and gals in this area and that can cause problems if i want to make a honest deal, after all these folks know i want to sell the boat and i am friends with them so the trend is for them to give me the benifit of the doubt. some boats the best guy to hire is not a surveyer. rather a marine archetect would do you a better job. many old steel boats have been refit over the years and sometimes stability is comprimised or the boat is no longer able to be sailed in fresh water. some sailboats have to big of rig, to small a rig, wrong angles for standing rigging, bad rake, under sized sticks, whimpy mast steps, over all bad design, a bunch of other stuff that a surveyer will not catch. the archetects job is to run the numbers, find the flaws and let you know. the weakness of getting a survey or having an archetect go over things is that some folks consider them to be the last word, allow them to make decisions, or give opinions. not good when buying a boat you want advise and data not opinions. Thanks. Some sound advice and observations there. Seems you do a lot boat trading. Does (or can) a surveyor offer advice on pricing, or is that out of his territory? --Vic |
Surveys
"Alan Gomes" wrote in message ...
wrote: snip Until you try and get insurance... Which you will need to stay at most marinas... And you would be extremely foolish to be without, anyway. When a $3000 sailboat breaks free in a storm and hits a $750k sailboat, or several of them... You mean sort of like this? http://www.thelog.com/news/logNewsAr...=4&b=14&x=8665 --Alan Good reason to have an accessible fuel cut-off. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Surveys
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:40:05 -0500, said: That is the way it's generally done. However, if I were selling a boat I'd tell the buyer at the outset that the agreed price is the price regardless of what a survey finds. If he doesn't like the survey he can cancel the contract, but there will be no renegotiation of the price. In this market, you'll have that boat until it gets sold as part of your estate. Nonsense. There are people who don't have the psychological profile of the merchant in a Middle Eastern bazaar. Even in this market. Dave, although I am not as expert as you ,, what you write is totally not true, at least in the market we find ourselves in today. I have only been looking for a short time, but every boat I have looked at, and the many folks I have asked for help .. have all assured me that if the seller wants. or has any interest at all in selling his/her boat, then the seller must work with the buyer.. I don't know where you live but here in Florida, there are thousands of boats for sale and very few buyers. |
Surveys
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:14:51 GMT, "Janet O'Leary" wrote: When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm looking at a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400 dollars and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I got to wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the survey. This way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose the sale, but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in excellent condition. The buyer always pays for the survey because it is for their benefit. Janet, in all seriousness and with all due respect, if you are concerned about $400 you have no business even thinking about buying a boat or living on one. $400 and the purchase price are just the tip of the iceberg. If low cost housing is your top priority consider the rental or purchase of a mobile home. It would be *much* less expensive than owning a boat and have a lot more living space. why thank you wayne, for your advice.. now go ... you sound like some of the men around here, dumb, fat, and loud. |
Surveys
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:51:18 GMT, "Janet O'Leary"
wrote: "Dave" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:40:05 -0500, said: That is the way it's generally done. However, if I were selling a boat I'd tell the buyer at the outset that the agreed price is the price regardless of what a survey finds. If he doesn't like the survey he can cancel the contract, but there will be no renegotiation of the price. In this market, you'll have that boat until it gets sold as part of your estate. Nonsense. There are people who don't have the psychological profile of the merchant in a Middle Eastern bazaar. Even in this market. Dave, although I am not as expert as you ,, what you write is totally not true, at least in the market we find ourselves in today. I have only been looking for a short time, but every boat I have looked at, and the many folks I have asked for help .. have all assured me that if the seller wants. or has any interest at all in selling his/her boat, then the seller must work with the buyer.. I don't know where you live but here in Florida, there are thousands of boats for sale and very few buyers. Whether he wants to haggle or not, it's a fact of life in most sales of this type that most people would expect to get his price down. Hell of a lot easier to put that haggle money in the offer price and work it down if necessary to do the sale. Just my opinion. --Vic |
Surveys
On Nov 24, 1:13*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:34:00 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: for me it depends on what i am doing with the boat. if i am picking up a boat to reloft it and rebuild it i dont get a survey because im just gonna rip the boat apart and any rot will come to light. if i plan on doing some fixup and flip work i get a survey to find out if there are problems i have over looked and to see if the price is worth the headach. if i am buying a plastic boat i tend to not get a survey because i am almost obligated to rip the transom and house off of the boat and fix the rot issues. (never seen a plastic boat that didnt have rot issues in these places) If i am getting a boat to use with my students i dont get a survey because i am going to take the boat apart and rebuild it and each problem i run into i use as a teaching point. surveyers are best used when you are plunking down a bunch of cash and want to negotiate price. good surveyers can find problems that you and the seller may not have looked at (soft places next to the keel, rot under pipes, electrical problems, keel cooler problems, rot under the mast step, ETC.) steel boats i always get surveyed no matter the size, or what i am going to do with it. to much can hide under paint and i dont want to waste time kneedle gunning the entire hull if i dont have to. engines are another always have surveyed deal I want a list of all the stuff wrong with the power plant and a good mech on hand to let me know if i ought to pull it or fix it. I dont get electrical surveys done at all, ever. there is not a used boat on earth that does not need all the electrical ripped out and replaced. I tend to get anything over twenty feet looked at after i do a fix up and go to great lengths to have a clean bill when i am done. I have one set of eyes, it is valuable to me to have another set being critical of my work and to see that i have not overlooked something. for smaller boats i let the buyer get a surveyer to look it over and urge them to find one out of area. I have a good rep with the guys and gals in this area and that can cause problems if i want to make a honest deal, after all these folks know i want to sell the boat and i am friends with them so the trend is for them to give me the benifit of the doubt. some boats the best guy to hire is not a surveyer. rather a marine archetect would do you a better job. many old steel boats have been refit over the years and sometimes stability is comprimised or the boat is no longer able to be sailed in fresh water. some sailboats have to big of rig, to small a rig, wrong angles for standing rigging, bad rake, under sized sticks, whimpy mast steps, over all bad design, a bunch of other stuff that a surveyer will not catch. the archetects job is to run the numbers, find the flaws and let you know. the weakness of getting a survey or having an archetect go over things is that some folks consider them to be the last word, allow them to make decisions, or give opinions. not good when buying a boat you want advise and data not opinions. Thanks. *Some sound advice and observations there. Seems you do a lot boat trading. Does (or can) a surveyor offer advice on pricing, or is that out of his territory? --Vic *- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - IMO it would be out of his territory, and i dont think i have ever had a surveyor offer a price suggestion. I did have one tell me he would never again go aboard the boat i had him survey. the owner of said boat was standing on the dock with me all panting to seal the deal. when a 60 year old man who's been out in boats i would not call seaworthy tells me he fears for his life on a boat at the dock. i tend to listen. |
Surveys
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:34:00 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: for me it depends on what i am doing with the boat. if i am picking up a boat to reloft it and rebuild it i dont get a survey because im just gonna rip the boat apart and any rot will come to light. if i plan on doing some fixup and flip work i get a survey to find out if there are problems i have over looked and to see if the price is worth the headach. if i am buying a plastic boat i tend to not get a survey because i am almost obligated to rip the transom and house off of the boat and fix the rot issues. (never seen a plastic boat that didnt have rot issues in these places) If i am getting a boat to use with my students i dont get a survey because i am going to take the boat apart and rebuild it and each problem i run into i use as a teaching point. surveyers are best used when you are plunking down a bunch of cash and want to negotiate price. good surveyers can find problems that you and the seller may not have looked at (soft places next to the keel, rot under pipes, electrical problems, keel cooler problems, rot under the mast step, ETC.) steel boats i always get surveyed no matter the size, or what i am going to do with it. to much can hide under paint and i dont want to waste time kneedle gunning the entire hull if i dont have to. engines are another always have surveyed deal I want a list of all the stuff wrong with the power plant and a good mech on hand to let me know if i ought to pull it or fix it. I dont get electrical surveys done at all, ever. there is not a used boat on earth that does not need all the electrical ripped out and replaced. I tend to get anything over twenty feet looked at after i do a fix up and go to great lengths to have a clean bill when i am done. I have one set of eyes, it is valuable to me to have another set being critical of my work and to see that i have not overlooked something. for smaller boats i let the buyer get a surveyer to look it over and urge them to find one out of area. I have a good rep with the guys and gals in this area and that can cause problems if i want to make a honest deal, after all these folks know i want to sell the boat and i am friends with them so the trend is for them to give me the benifit of the doubt. some boats the best guy to hire is not a surveyer. rather a marine archetect would do you a better job. many old steel boats have been refit over the years and sometimes stability is comprimised or the boat is no longer able to be sailed in fresh water. some sailboats have to big of rig, to small a rig, wrong angles for standing rigging, bad rake, under sized sticks, whimpy mast steps, over all bad design, a bunch of other stuff that a surveyer will not catch. the archetects job is to run the numbers, find the flaws and let you know. the weakness of getting a survey or having an archetect go over things is that some folks consider them to be the last word, allow them to make decisions, or give opinions. not good when buying a boat you want advise and data not opinions. Thanks. Some sound advice and observations there. Seems you do a lot boat trading. Does (or can) a surveyor offer advice on pricing, or is that out of his territory? --Vic They don't offer advice on pricing, but they do give you a "how it lays" market price and a replacement cost. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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