"Gordon" wrote in message
m...

This whole subject could be easily put to bed by calling your local fuel
polisher and asking the age of boats that need polishing.
I think you'll find all the 70's and 80's need cleaning and the 90's will
need cleaning in the next few years. Anything newer and there is no
problem. Meaning that if your system is clean, it's probably good for 20
years. At least, that's the way it is in the Puget Sound area. I suppose
warmer, more humid areas could be worse.
That said, I run dual Racors mainly because they were freebies and my
neighbor polished my fuel when I installed the Racors.

Gordon


This is exactly what the guy with 30+ years of experience said on Saturday.
My boat/tank is over 30 years old and doesn't have dual. I haven't and
neither did the original owner keep the tank topped off. I've never had a
bacterial contamination issue, but I would certainly like to avoid one. It
was recommended to add a dual, add a biocide, add a cetane enhancer, and try
to keep the tank topped. I think I'll take his recommendations, given his
years of experience and world-wide reputation.

No put down on anyone else intended. But, I think I'll use the Occam's Razor
approach. His advice is simple and makes sense.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:39:13 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That constantly replenishing emergency tank idea of yours is one of the best
I've seen in this group. I'm still trying to figure out how I might
implement it but space, even for just the gallon I would need, is pretty
tight in a 32 foot boat.

I think it's very long odds that that the big Shelco filter would suddenly
load up. I would have advance warning from the Racor flow stopping and it
ought to take a lot longer for the Shelco to become critical. If I had to
change out a Racor filter, I would focus on getting into a safer position.
I also have two tanks so switching to the other one as well as switching the
fuel supply to the polishing output would be part of the drill if the Racor
loaded up. I'm a sailboat as well so I usually have an alternative
propulsion source.

A friend built a day tank in his old boat. He used a small electric
fuel pump as a transfer pump to fill the tank and piped the
overflow/breather line back to his main fuel tank.

He said he usually remembered to turn the transfer pump off but if he
didn't the overflow just returned to the main tank.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

"Capt. JG" wrote

This is exactly what the guy with 30+ years of experience said on
Saturday. It was recommended to add a dual (filter)....

So you are going to add that second filter ARE you not? In view of the high
current conditions in SF Bay and your responsibility to your students I'd
hate to be you if something happened due to fuel contamination after posting
that you were aware of this recommendation.

While you are at it, consider this:

I think my system has gotten a bad rap for complexity due to the dual tanks
which does drive up the cost and complexity a lot. Here is what it would
look like in yours or the typical single tank boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/1tankFOsystem.gif

The Shelco Filter was about the same cost as a Racor. The second pump was
about 60 bucks and is also a good redundancy feature. This redundancy would
be especially desirable in a boat with a low mounted tank that will not
gravity feed. Otherwise, there are only one or two additional valves and a
few fittings more than in the dual filter system. The cost difference is
insignificant in boat bucks.

Fuel contamination and degradation is always going on to some extent. This
system is constantly removing it whenever the engine is running. The system
will filter a volume equal to the typical sailboat tank every hour of
running time. Your dual filter OTOH is just sitting there doing nothing
useful.

Fuel flow at the tank inlet is vastly greater than in the typical system.
This increases the uptake of water and anything else floating around in the
bottom of the tank waiting for rough water and a tight spot to get sucked
into the system at the worst possible time. Since most of the fuel is going
through the polishing filter and being returned to the tank, getting this
stuff into the fuel system is a good thing.

In the event of the primary filter (Racor on the drawing) loading up, OR the
primary fuel pump failing, just turn one valve and you are back in business
with full fuel flow. Some tank configurations or engine driven fuel pump
problems may require partially or completely closing the second valve. In
any event, it doesn't take any longer than switching filters.

Let's say you do pick up a load of bad fuel and calling a fuel polishing
contractor isn't an option either because you are cruising or there isn't
one as is now the case here in Portland. (BTW, none of this has anything
to do with an old and neglected tank that has gotten thouroughly coated and
filled with slime. That's a different issue all together.)

Duel Filter Setup:

Switch filter.
Change first filter element - 16 bucks.

Run for a while.

Repeat as often as necessary at about 16 bucks a filter element.

The only way to get fuel flow is to run the engine That means doing these
repeated and expensive filter changes underway or with the engine running at
the dock and sucking very little fuel. With an engine the size you have on
your boat, it will take 20 - 30 hours to run all the fuel through the
filters. And, you have to consume it which adds to the expense.

Polishing Setup:

Turn red valve and isolation valve if necessary and deal with it when you
get back to the dock. The high capacity of the Shelco makes its load up
time much higher than the Racor or similary filter. You can change it's two
buck element while the engine runs on the Racor, just as on a dual filter
system if it does load up.

When you get back to the dock, you can plug into shore power and let the
polishing system run with the engine off, changing two dollar filter
elements as necessary.

Based on the amount of crud I found in my Shelco and the pristine condition
of the sediment bowl in my Racor, I would say loading up of the Racor is
unlikely in any event.

Here's a challenge. Usually after you've taken a seminar like the one you
just did, they will entertain a few follow up questions. Take this
schematic to your guy and let us know what he thinks.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

This is exactly what the guy with 30+ years of experience said on
Saturday. It was recommended to add a dual (filter)....

So you are going to add that second filter ARE you not? In view of the
high current conditions in SF Bay and your responsibility to your students
I'd hate to be you if something happened due to fuel contamination after
posting that you were aware of this recommendation.

I probably will. I need to haul out in the next couple of months, and given
"fandamily" stuff coming up... Turkey/Xmas, I probably won't be teaching on
her until after the haul.

The thing is... I don't really use the engine all that much during much of a
class. I'm pretty careful about doing all the preliminary checks, which are
part of the typical class. The basic class I teach has the first 1/2 day +
as engine awareness/use, and for that we're typically in and around a
marina. The only time the engine has quit unexpectedly was when a student
throttled back so much that the engine died... throttle is the kill switch
for my boat. This actually happend during the last class when we were
practicing motoring up to and stopping at a mooring. Engine quit, no
problem. I popped the jib and we sailed off in two seconds flat.

While you are at it, consider this:

I think my system has gotten a bad rap for complexity due to the dual
tanks which does drive up the cost and complexity a lot. Here is what it
would look like in yours or the typical single tank boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/1tankFOsystem.gif

The Shelco Filter was about the same cost as a Racor. The second pump was
about 60 bucks and is also a good redundancy feature. This redundancy
would be especially desirable in a boat with a low mounted tank that will
not gravity feed. Otherwise, there are only one or two additional valves
and a few fittings more than in the dual filter system. The cost
difference is insignificant in boat bucks.

Fuel contamination and degradation is always going on to some extent.
This system is constantly removing it whenever the engine is running. The
system will filter a volume equal to the typical sailboat tank every hour
of running time. Your dual filter OTOH is just sitting there doing
nothing useful.

Fuel flow at the tank inlet is vastly greater than in the typical system.
This increases the uptake of water and anything else floating around in
the bottom of the tank waiting for rough water and a tight spot to get
sucked into the system at the worst possible time. Since most of the fuel
is going through the polishing filter and being returned to the tank,
getting this stuff into the fuel system is a good thing.

True, but in the SF bay, "rough" sailing (bouncing around) is pretty
typical. Always looking for the zephyr, but... well, it happens, hopefully
around lunch time. LOL

In the event of the primary filter (Racor on the drawing) loading up, OR
the primary fuel pump failing, just turn one valve and you are back in
business with full fuel flow. Some tank configurations or engine driven
fuel pump problems may require partially or completely closing the second
valve. In any event, it doesn't take any longer than switching filters.

Let's say you do pick up a load of bad fuel and calling a fuel polishing
contractor isn't an option either because you are cruising or there isn't
one as is now the case here in Portland. (BTW, none of this has anything
to do with an old and neglected tank that has gotten thouroughly coated
and filled with slime. That's a different issue all together.)

Geez... I hope not around here. The big issue is whether or not the fuel
pump attendant is around so I can pay him. Early in the summer, he wasn't...
pumps were unlocked and there were two of us standing around for a while to
see if he would return. Finally, we just left the cash in the office (also
unlocked).

Last I pulled the single filter from the primary, I almost didn't replace it
because it looked so good...

Duel Filter Setup:

Switch filter.
Change first filter element - 16 bucks.

Run for a while.

Repeat as often as necessary at about 16 bucks a filter element.

The only way to get fuel flow is to run the engine That means doing these
repeated and expensive filter changes underway or with the engine running
at the dock and sucking very little fuel. With an engine the size you
have on your boat, it will take 20 - 30 hours to run all the fuel through
the filters. And, you have to consume it which adds to the expense.

Polishing Setup:

Turn red valve and isolation valve if necessary and deal with it when you
get back to the dock. The high capacity of the Shelco makes its load up
time much higher than the Racor or similary filter. You can change it's
two buck element while the engine runs on the Racor, just as on a dual
filter system if it does load up.

When you get back to the dock, you can plug into shore power and let the
polishing system run with the engine off, changing two dollar filter
elements as necessary.

Based on the amount of crud I found in my Shelco and the pristine
condition of the sediment bowl in my Racor, I would say loading up of the
Racor is unlikely in any event.

Here's a challenge. Usually after you've taken a seminar like the one you
just did, they will entertain a few follow up questions. Take this
schematic to your guy and let us know what he thinks.

I'll see what I can do. I copied out the schematic and I'll email it to him,
along with your explanation.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Nov 17, 6:04*am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote

This is exactly what the guy with 30+ years of experience said on
Saturday. It was recommended to add a dual (filter)....

So you are going to add that second filter ARE you not? *In view of the high
current conditions in SF Bay and your responsibility to your students I'd
hate to be you if something happened due to fuel contamination after posting
that you were aware of this recommendation.

While you are at it, consider this:

I think my system has gotten a bad rap for complexity due to the dual tanks
which does drive up the cost and complexity a lot. *Here is what it would
look like in yours or the typical single tank boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/1tankFOsystem.gif

The Shelco Filter was about the same cost as a Racor. *The second pump was
about 60 bucks and is also a good redundancy feature. *This redundancy would
be especially desirable in a boat with a low mounted tank that will not
gravity feed. * Otherwise, there are only one or two additional valves and a
few fittings more than in the dual filter system. The cost difference is
insignificant in boat bucks.

Fuel contamination and degradation is always going on to some extent. *This
system is constantly removing it whenever the engine is running. *The system
will filter a volume equal to the typical sailboat tank every hour of
running time. *Your dual filter OTOH is just sitting there doing nothing
useful.

Fuel flow at the tank inlet is vastly greater than in the typical system.
This increases the uptake of water and anything else floating around in the
bottom of the tank waiting for rough water and a tight spot to get sucked
into the system at the worst possible time. *Since most of the fuel is going
through the polishing filter and being returned to the tank, getting this
stuff into the fuel system is a good thing.

In the event of the primary filter (Racor on the drawing) loading up, OR the
primary fuel pump failing, just turn one valve and you are back in business
with full fuel flow. *Some tank configurations or engine driven fuel pump
problems may require partially or completely closing the second valve. *In
any event, it doesn't take any longer than switching filters.

Let's say you do pick up a load of bad fuel and calling a fuel polishing
contractor isn't an option either because you are cruising or there isn't
one as is now the case here in Portland. * (BTW, none of this has anything
to do with an old and neglected tank that has gotten thouroughly coated and
filled with slime. *That's a different issue all together.)

Duel Filter Setup:

Switch filter.
Change first filter element - 16 bucks.

Run for a while.

Repeat as often as necessary at about 16 bucks a filter element.

The only way to get fuel flow is to run the engine *That means doing these
repeated and expensive filter changes underway or with the engine running at
the dock and sucking very little fuel. *With an engine the size you have on
your boat, it will take 20 - 30 hours to run all the fuel through the
filters. *And, you have to consume it which adds to the expense.

Polishing Setup:

Turn red valve and isolation valve if necessary and deal with it when you
get back to the dock. *The high capacity of the Shelco makes its load up
time much higher than the Racor or similary filter. *You can change it's two
buck element while the engine runs on the Racor, just as on a dual filter
system if it does load up.

When you get back to the dock, you can plug into shore power and let the
polishing system run with the engine off, changing two dollar filter
elements as necessary.

Based on the amount of crud I found in my Shelco and the pristine condition
of the sediment bowl in my Racor, I would say loading up of the Racor is
unlikely in any event.

Here's a challenge. *Usually after you've taken a seminar like the one you
just did, they will entertain a few follow up questions. *Take this
schematic to your guy and let us know what he thinks.

--
Roger Long

Roger why not double the filters and install a two position Y valve
them so you can shut off the clogged filter and run through a new
instead of trying to change out while running?

"Two meter troll" wrote

Roger, why not double the filters and install a two position Y valve
them so you can shut off the clogged filter and run through a new
instead of trying to change out while running?

Did you read the post? The boat will run on the Shelco filter and polishing
pump until that filter loads up which will take a lot, lot, longer than a
second Racor to become non-functional.

Or, do you mean having 4 filters?

--
Roger Long

On 2008-11-16 22:48:36 -0500, Gordon said:

I think you'll find all the 70's and 80's need cleaning and the 90's
will need cleaning in the next few years. Anything newer and there is
no problem. Meaning that if your system is clean, it's probably good
for 20 years. At least, that's the way it is in the Puget Sound area. I
suppose warmer, more humid areas could be worse.

It's not that cut-and-dry. I had occasion to empty our tank to put in
fuel level sensors and such for a few seasons.

In one early-half season, we picked up enough bugs to clog our filter,
but once that lot was filtered out, we've not had a problem. A season
or two later, it was still bright and shiny.

I expect we've a few bugs at the moment, but I don't think we've used
20 gallons (from a 15 gallon tank) in 3 seasons. Lots of time to breed
the critters. Turn-over, biocide, and filtering all contribute to
cleanliness; the obverse is also true.

Amending slightly: Roger's experience from lots of turnover indicates
to me that he got some gunky stuff from the supplying fuel tanks. As
much as he burned, there really wasn't that much time to breed the
critters onboard.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote

Amending slightly: Roger's experience from lots of turnover indicates to
me that he got some gunky stuff from the supplying fuel tanks. As much as
he burned, there really wasn't that much time to breed the critters
onboard.


I strongly suspect that is the case. One of the last loads of the season
was from a looong marina hose. There was probably the half tank I put in
just in the hose alone which had been sitting out in the sun since the last
boat came along. It was late in the year and the dock attendant mentioned
that it had been a while since anyone came in for diesel.

This is exactly the situation that prompted the installation. When I get to
where fuel docks are few and far between, I might have to take on a load
even if it looks funky. Or, the sample might look good and bad stuff comes
down the hose later. With the standard filter set up, even if dual, there
is no choice but to filter it all at the engine consumption rate, burn it
immediately after it goes through the filter, and change filters through the
whole tank. People have used up enough Racor filter elements in these cases
to pay for my Shelco filter and the second pump.

The one drawback of my system is that, in an extreme case, both filters
could plug up with nothing to switch to. The Shelco has very high retention
capacity though compared to the Racor. The Racor would almost certainly
plug first in that case and I would open the bypass from the polishing
system. Extra caution right after fueling and attention to the gauges on the
filters before getting into a critical situation should be SOP with either
system.

If I do find I have a problem, it can be dealt with without having to run
fuel through the engine or even having the engine running and I can get
multiple passes through the filter before sending fuel to the engine.
That's the real beauty of the system.

--
Roger Long

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:48:43 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

This is exactly the situation that prompted the installation. When I get to
where fuel docks are few and far between, I might have to take on a load
even if it looks funky.

Get thee a Baja Filter or West Marine's equivalent. They were
designed for taking on suspect fuel in funky locations:

http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html

"Wayne.B" wrote

Get thee a Baja Filter or West Marine's equivalent. They were
designed for taking on suspect fuel in funky locations:

http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html


I've got one (West) but it's hard to use on my boat and busy fuel docks
aren't always happy with the extra fueling time. There are also ways
contamination can get in. They take out water but I'm not sure about fungal
spores which can also come in the vent.

--
Roger Long