On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:16:26 +0200, pete wrote:

Well its time to make my rudder, for a tiller steered 34 foot Van de
Stadt. Now Van de Stadt have given me a nice drawing showing three
types of construction:

wood strips with a gap of around 1 3/4" between the strips, filled
with polyurethane foam, and covered with a plywood skin.

Solid plywood panels glued together and shaped

foam with a epoxy and glass fibre skin.

any of the above seems ok (apart from perhaps the plywood one may be a
bit heavy?)

but is it possible ( perhaps the stupid question) to make a rudder the
salme way as my hull ie; western red cedar strips laminated with a
fibreglass and epoxy skin? Its seems pretty tough now my hull is made
and for me it may be easier to make and fit on my rudder stock. It
seems to me it would be at least as strong as a foam rudder, and
almost as light.

BTW, the first construction method doesn't make the rudder shaft
manufactureres (Jefa) squeal with joy.

Thanks for the input folks. The weight / floatability bit isn't
relevant for me as the rudders is not hung on pintles, rather goes
through the hull on bearings. So it won't ride up. Since posting this
I have found that the rudder gets its strength from the spokes welded
to the rudder shaft, and the manufacturers of the shaft explained to
me how to fit a foam core around the spokes and cover it with epoxy
and glass. I quite fancied the idea of a cedar rudder, but in the end
foam is easier

Point taken about sealing the ends. I had a boat with a hollow
fibreglass rudder once and when I took it off for servicing the
bearings,, I found half a gallon of watere sloshing around inside

Pete

Well, maybe, but we're talking about adding a couple of pounds to a 1500
pound boat. The "pintle" is not the ordinary rowboat stern device, and
there's no place for a latch.

For pitching moment, I'm a lot more concerned with the chain portion of the
anchor rode which will be stowed in the very bow.

Mr. Fox seems to disagree with Phillip C. Bolger. In "Thirty Odd Boats"
PCB, commenting on Herreshoff's Rosinante suggests that "half the weight in
that 3000 lb. keel is to give the boat momentum."

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

"DSK" wrote in message
...
derbyrm wrote:
I'm planning on adding lead ballast to my rudder stock to keep the
assembly firmly on the pintle. (After I trim the bottom half inch of the
stock off).

"The only vehicle that benefits from added weight is a steamroller" -Uffa
Fox

You should consider a latch to hold the rudder on it's pintles. There are
a number of quite simple & effective ones available off the shelf.

Making it heavier will increase loads on the pintles & gudgeons, on the
transom, will change the balance of the boat & make it pitch more, and if
the boat is ever in enough motion or at such an attitude that the weight
is no longer pulling straight down, you have lost all benefit and kept the
negatives.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

derbyrm wrote:
Well, maybe, but we're talking about adding a couple of pounds to a 1500
pound boat. The "pintle" is not the ordinary rowboat stern device, and
there's no place for a latch.


If there's no place on the stern for a latch, that suggests
that there's no stern. This idea might work and also look
salty, a short rope strop tensioned (slightly) upward from
the stern to a cleat on the rudder cheek.


For pitching moment, I'm a lot more concerned with the chain portion of the
anchor rode which will be stowed in the very bow.


Also a bad idea IMHO. Why not stow it amidships? Why carry
so much chain in the first place? Because it's manly?


Mr. Fox seems to disagree with Phillip C. Bolger. In "Thirty Odd Boats"
PCB, commenting on Herreshoff's Rosinante suggests that "half the weight in
that 3000 lb. keel is to give the boat momentum."


If we could get the two together, I'm sure it would be an
interesting discussion. In any case, the weight fo the
Rozinante keel is really there for righting moment. Momentum
may be a benefit in some situations, a detriment in others.
If the same righting moment could be had with less weight
(all else being equal), you can be assured that a designer
of L.F. Herreshoff's caliber (or Bolger's, he's certainly no
slouch) would jump on it.

DSK

You can check out the bottom most pictures at
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Chebacco.html to see what I'm dealing
with. I guess I could put a collar on the rudder shaft below the cross
piece, but it adds complexity while my solution is simpler. I replaced the
specified SS tube with PVC and want to get back toward the designed weight.
That should be $$ based on my shopping for a three foot length of 2" 316
Stainless, PCB's recommendation.

Even a short (20 to 30 foot) length of chain adds a lot of weight. It's
there to increase holding power at limited scope and to limit the ground
debris' damage to the rode. The real cruisers, manly and womanly, favor all
chain rode.

Stowage amidships has been done, but it's a really difficult thing to do
well. Put it amidships and you've diced the cabin with the hawse tube. Put
it to one side and, over time, one of your legs gets shorter.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
"DSK" wrote in message
...
derbyrm wrote:
Well, maybe, but we're talking about adding a couple of pounds to a 1500
pound boat. The "pintle" is not the ordinary rowboat stern device, and
there's no place for a latch.


If there's no place on the stern for a latch, that suggests that there's
no stern. This idea might work and also look salty, a short rope strop
tensioned (slightly) upward from the stern to a cleat on the rudder cheek.


For pitching moment, I'm a lot more concerned with the chain portion of
the anchor rode which will be stowed in the very bow.


Also a bad idea IMHO. Why not stow it amidships? Why carry so much chain
in the first place? Because it's manly?


Mr. Fox seems to disagree with Phillip C. Bolger. In "Thirty Odd Boats"
PCB, commenting on Herreshoff's Rosinante suggests that "half the weight
in that 3000 lb. keel is to give the boat momentum."


If we could get the two together, I'm sure it would be an interesting
discussion. In any case, the weight fo the Rozinante keel is really there
for righting moment. Momentum may be a benefit in some situations, a
detriment in others. If the same righting moment could be had with less
weight (all else being equal), you can be assured that a designer of L.F.
Herreshoff's caliber (or Bolger's, he's certainly no slouch) would jump on
it.

DSK

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 22:03:32 +0000, derbyrm wrote:

"Martin Schöön" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 12:20:23 +0000, derbyrm wrote:

Because you'll have to add more lead below the waterline to keep the
weedy side of the boat down?

snip

Actually, I'm picturing a boat at anchor in a chop (as someone mentioned)
with the rudder banging up and down as the water comes and goes. Noise is
BAD.

Only of the rudder *just* floats or the pitching is really bad but then
even a heavy rudder would jump on its pintles.

Why would you want to make it lighter?

Because it is possible.
Because less weight in the ends means less pitching.

Is this that monster rudder we aren't talking about? Where do you stow your
anchor and chain?

Alu anchor here. It is actually lighter than one of my rudder
blades if memory serves. Both anchor and 5 m of chain are in
in a forward locker (ca. 2 m from bow) though :-(

Because lighter is faster.

In light airs. In a chop, weight keeps you going. Sail planes carry water
ballest for better speed and range.

My boat is not a sail plane is your?
Sure, in some combinations of wind and waves I might go faster
if heavier - maybe once every three years.

/Martin

derbyrm wrote:

You can check out the bottom most pictures at
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Chebacco.html

Thanks, I have looked. I've always liked the Chebacco design
and yours looks like it's turning out beautifully.

FWIW another of my favorites is Black Skimmer. I used to
know a Lightning sailor who had one of these as his cruising
boat.



... I guess I could put a collar on the rudder shaft below the cross
piece, but it adds complexity while my solution is simpler.

It's not simpler if it doesn't work as well under varying
circumstances.



Even a short (20 to 30 foot) length of chain adds a lot of weight.

True. That doesn't mean you need to carry it right at the bow.

.... It's
there to increase holding power at limited scope and to limit the ground
debris' damage to the rode.

True.

... The real cruisers, manly and womanly, favor all
chain rode.


That depends on whom you consider a "real cruiser." There
are places where more chain is certainly desirable but many
others where it's just a heavy PITA. In a small boat like a
Chebacco you would do well to avoid heavy macho "solutions"
and try to keep things light & practical.

I have used all-chain rode in places like the Bahamas and
some parts of New England, but for most of the U.S. east
coast, it's overkill. Many a "real cruiser" seems to like
all-chain for bragging rights about the hairy-assedness of
his or her ground tackle (shrug). Improperly set, or using
the wrong anchor, will drag just as readily with all-chain
as with short heavy chain & line. OTOH I've anchored
securely many a night (including some pretty heavy weather)
with rodes of mostly rope.


Stowage amidships has been done, but it's a really difficult thing to do
well.

True.

.... Put it amidships and you've diced the cabin with the hawse tube. Put
it to one side and, over time, one of your legs gets shorter.


In small boats, I've had pretty good luck storing the anchor
either under the well deck or at the forward end of one of
the cockpit lockers, and leading the rode around the outside
to the bow chock. When you want to anchor, just pull up a
little further to windward of your spot to allow for the
extra 20 or so feet of rode you just dropped. That also
eliminates the ugly marks from dragging the chain across the
boat.

This also makes it much easier to anchor by the stern, which
can be very nice (we used to do it all the time when
pulling up a beach, which you can easily do with a boat like
this). Of course many a "real cruiser" would never consider
either option above. Oh well, their loss IMHO. And I don't
like crowds anyway!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:57:51 +0000, derbyrm wrote:


Mr. Fox seems to disagree with Phillip C. Bolger. In "Thirty Odd Boats"
PCB, commenting on Herreshoff's Rosinante suggests that "half the weight in
that 3000 lb. keel is to give the boat momentum."

Recommended reading:

Chapter XVIII "The Sailing Machine" in "The Common Sense of Yacht Design"
by L. Francis Herreshoff. (volume II)

/Martin

"DSK" wrote in message
...
derbyrm wrote:

Even a short (20 to 30 foot) length of chain adds a lot of weight.

True. That doesn't mean you need to carry it right at the bow.

But that's where the self draining storage compartment is shown by the
designer.

That depends on whom you consider a "real cruiser." There are places where
more chain is certainly desirable but many others where it's just a heavy
PITA. In a small boat like a Chebacco you would do well to avoid heavy
macho "solutions" and try to keep things light & practical.

I have used all-chain rode in places like the Bahamas and some parts of
New England, but for most of the U.S. east coast, it's overkill. Many a
"real cruiser" seems to like all-chain for bragging rights about the
hairy-assedness of his or her ground tackle (shrug). Improperly set, or
using the wrong anchor, will drag just as readily with all-chain as with
short heavy chain & line. OTOH I've anchored securely many a night
(including some pretty heavy weather) with rodes of mostly rope.

Misunderstanding here! I gave up the idea of an all chain rode when I gave
up on my version of Badger. The short heavy length is what I'm thinking of.
Or a keggle.

I imagine that most of my anchoring will be along the shores of the Ohio
River, and there's some pretty nasty jetsum, up to and including houses and
sunken barges, in those parts.

Stowage amidships has been done, but it's a really difficult thing to do
well.

True.

.... Put it amidships and you've diced the cabin with the hawse tube.
Put it to one side and, over time, one of your legs gets shorter.


In small boats, I've had pretty good luck storing the anchor either under
the well deck or at the forward end of one of the cockpit lockers, and
leading the rode around the outside to the bow chock. When you want to
anchor, just pull up a little further to windward of your spot to allow
for the extra 20 or so feet of rode you just dropped. That also eliminates
the ugly marks from dragging the chain across the boat.

That's an idea I really like! I keep forgetting that I'll have all that
storage under the cockpit seats. Once it's rinsed off, it can go by the
battery bank (with proper insulation/protection/baffles).

I've updated the rudder pictures in the middle of
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Dayawl.html

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

True. That doesn't mean you need to carry it right at the bow.


derbyrm wrote:
But that's where the self draining storage compartment is shown by the
designer.


That's a good feature. I didn't think much of anchor wells
until we owned a boat that had one. Bolger's designs have
the added benefit of being able to get the weight down
lower. Still want to minimize weight up front.

The boat's not a one-design racer but it's small enough to
suffer if you were to carry too much weight up there.



Misunderstanding here! I gave up the idea of an all chain rode when I gave
up on my version of Badger. The short heavy length is what I'm thinking of.
Or a keggle.


Don't know what a keggle is.

We do a lot of anchoring in shallow muddy places. The set-up
we use for our "working" anchor is a shorter (40') length of
heavier chain. Bought from a farm-supply store at approx 1/2
marine prices (yes it is HT hot galvanized, same stuff).


I imagine that most of my anchoring will be along the shores of the Ohio
River, and there's some pretty nasty jetsum, up to and including houses and
sunken barges, in those parts.


You'll probably want a trip line. We rarely use one. Our
plan is to do an eastern loop (or Great Loop or
circumnavigate West Virginia) via the ICW, Hudson, Erie
Canal, Great Lakes, Mississippi River, down & around
Florida... up the Ohio for at least a short stretch, so
we'll see what it's like too.

Aren't there a lot of nice lakes in that area?




That's an idea I really like! I keep forgetting that I'll have all that
storage under the cockpit seats. Once it's rinsed off, it can go by the
battery bank (with proper insulation/protection/baffles).


Can you put in a self-draining shelf to put it on? The darn
things are almost always dirty & damp.

Here's my current project
http://community.webshots.com/album/82561569ZSrzNA

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...
True. That doesn't mean you need to carry it right at the bow.

derbyrm wrote:
But that's where the self draining storage compartment is
shown by the designer.

That's a good feature. I didn't think much of anchor wells until we owned
a boat that had one. Bolger's designs have the added benefit of being able
to get the weight down lower. Still want to minimize weight up front.

The boat's not a one-design racer but it's small enough to suffer if you
were to carry too much weight up there.

Misunderstanding here! I gave up the idea of an all chain rode when I
gave up on my version of Badger. The short heavy length is what I'm
thinking of. Or a keggle.

Don't know what a keggle is.

I've been having trouble finding the correct spelling for the gadget. What
I'm referring to is a weight which slides down the rode, part way, to
emulate the catenary you'd get with the chain. It has its own light line
for recovery and positioning.

We do a lot of anchoring in shallow muddy places. The set-up we use for
our "working" anchor is a shorter (40') length of heavier chain. Bought
from a farm-supply store at approx 1/2 marine prices (yes it is HT hot
galvanized, same stuff).


I imagine that most of my anchoring will be along the shores of
the Ohio River, and there's some pretty nasty jetsum, up to and
including houses and sunken barges, in those parts.

You'll probably want a trip line. We rarely use one. Our plan is to do an
eastern loop (or Great Loop or circumnavigate West Virginia) via the ICW,
Hudson, Erie Canal, Great Lakes, Mississippi River, down & around
Florida... up the Ohio for at least a short stretch, so we'll see what
it's like too.

That "Great Loop" excursion has been a dream of mine for many years,
starting back when I lived in Schenectady, NY. I don't think the Chebacco's
living accomodations are up to it. It would work better with one of
Bolger's long, skinny motor boats.

I found it interesting that from Cleveland to Chicago is over 1000 miles by
water.

That's an idea I really like! I keep forgetting that I'll have all that
storage under the cockpit seats. Once it's rinsed off, it can go by the
battery bank (with proper insulation/protection/baffles).


Can you put in a self-draining shelf to put it on? The darn things are
almost always dirty & damp.

Good idea, but it will have to wait until I turn the hull over.

Here's my current project
http://community.webshots.com/album/82561569ZSrzNA

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm