I saw the photo of the 1x1 oak tied in a knot in one of the boatbuilding
books at the library, probably L Frances Herreshoff(?)

as for moisture content of wood, it does change quite a bit. We've read
here before about the importance of getting the moisture content down to
12% to prevent warping and rot. I even leave my wood cross country skis
outside for a few days before applying pine tar to the base, just to make
sure the wood is not too dry to be springy when I'm using them. I'm sure
if wood only needed to be heated to bend then for centuries boatbuilders
would have been using dry ovens instead of more complicated steam boxes
for bending. And natives would have left wood in the sun to warm up prior
to bending rather than soaking canoe ribs and planks without heat to make
them easier to bend. Anybody who wants to try a comparsion can heat wood
in an oven or microwave dry or wet and test the difference. What we don't
have in this, and many discussions, is any experimental data.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:53:54 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

I picked up on this note. The tone was ugly. So I looked back on the
thread to see how Marcel had transgressed.
I didn't see it. So it looks kinda irrational.
Can someone explain please?

Brian W


I think Old Nick meant to point out that Marcel isn't participating in
the thread. I don't see why that's a problem... the guy asked because
he doesn't know, so he presumably doesn't have anything to contribute.

-m

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:08:40 -0500, Max Camirand
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:


I think Old Nick meant to point out that Marcel isn't participating in
the thread. I don't see why that's a problem... the guy asked because
he doesn't know, so he presumably doesn't have anything to contribute.

-m

How about:

Hey guys, I am listening to the answers that people take time to
provide, at my request?

Thank you?


************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:53:54 GMT, Brian Whatcott
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

I picked up on this note. The tone was ugly. So I looked back on the
thread to see how Marcel had transgressed.
I didn't see it. So it looks kinda irrational.
Can someone explain please?
Easy. I get sick of people who come here and ask questions (and the
question was minimally asked) and then can't be bothered to show an
interest in the efrfort people put into replying.
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:05:27 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


But I agree, it's
the heat, not the water that allows wood to bend. I've seen dry wood
bent with only heat. Water was used only to keep the wood from scorching.

I know people who've done a lot of dry bending, but I haven't tried it
myself. Compared to steaming, it's harder to achieve an even heat, with
scorching being a common result. I know of one guy who dry bent kiln
dried poplar! While he did manage to get it to bend, the bent parts were
terribly uneven quite charred on the outside. I think he must have been
seriously masochistic!

Luthiers normally dry bend over a heated pipe. A man I knew who
hotbent lute staves (about 1 mm thick) would put them outside
overnight if they got totally dessicated.

He never soaked anything, even though wood that thin might have wet
through. One reason was that he used curly maple. If he soaked that
after thinning it it would get all ripply. Violins often have curly
maple, so the same would apply.

On a separate but related matter, Flemish harpsichord makers of the
16th and 17th centuries hot-bent the curved bentside of their
instruments. These were made of limewood or European poplar (populus
spp) not tulip poplar as we have in the US.

This did char as they bent it. They scraped the charcoal off so they
could paint afterwards, which accounts for the side being thinner at
the point of sharpest curvature. As far as anyone knows, this practice
continued from circa 1500 to ca 1700. I don't believe they wasted any
time doing it.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Smoking in a bar is like peeing in a punchbowl.

Old Nick says:

Easy. I get sick of people who come here and ask questions (and the
question was minimally asked) and then can't be bothered to show an
interest in the efrfort people put into replying.

Assuming he's even reading the replies anyway. Most folks with questions like
that just assume they'll be answered by email as we'all have nothing better to
do with our time, being newsgroup junkies 'n'all.

Steve

Well Nick, I must admit that where I saw this was not on a boat.
Musical instrument makers have been doing this for centuries to bend the
sides of guitars and such. Though the wood was thin, I've seen a guitar
maker bend honduran mahogany using a two inch iron pipe that was set up
on a stand with a propane torch burning in the middle of the pipe.
water was sprayed on the surface of the wood to prevent burning. Worked
very well. I wonder if this concept/tool cold be used for larger pieces
for bending ribs on small boats. I see no reason why it wouldn't work
when making small ribs like for a kayak or something.

Old Nick wrote:
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:29:04 GMT, steveJ vaguely
proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:


I wonder if the idea of soaking wood before steam bending comes from
trying to bend kiln dried wood by introducing some moisture back into
it. Certainly green wood bends easier than kiln dried. But I agree, it's
the heat, not the water that allows wood to bend. I've seen dry wood
bent with only heat. Water was used only to keep the wood from scorching.


Woah! New! I have seen "fire bending" of wood. But it was always
associated with Asian/African boats etc, where green wood was used
anyway. The idea of fire bending really dry timber, with water to
prevent scorching only, is a new "twist" G
************************************************** ** sorry

.........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On a related note, I've always wondered if steam bending increased the
rot resistence of wood. I was thinking that when a tree grows there are
all kinds of mold and fungus spores and bacteria that must be in the
wood just naturally. But when you steam it, these little buggers would
be killed. Sterilized.
Any body ever think of this? I wonder if it would reduce or slow fungus
growth.
Also, I don't mind if people don't follow up their questions when others
give a reply. It is a little rude, but who cares if we all can learn
from the exchange?

Stephen Baker wrote:
Old Nick says:


Easy. I get sick of people who come here and ask questions (and the
question was minimally asked) and then can't be bothered to show an
interest in the efrfort people put into replying.


Assuming he's even reading the replies anyway. Most folks with questions like
that just assume they'll be answered by email as we'all have nothing better to
do with our time, being newsgroup junkies 'n'all.

Steve

William R. Watt wrote:
: Brian Nystrom ) writes:

: When I've soaked wood, all it did was make is swell so it no longer fit
: where it was supposed to, such as in a mortise. Either that, or if it
: was trimmed to fit after steaming, it shrank as it dried and became
: loose. Soaking didn't seem to make any difference in the bend-ability of
: the wood.

: softwoods would have more of a tendancy to swell. TF Jones writes that a
: nice piece of 15-20 year old oak needs soaking before steam bending.

Well you usually would prefer to steambend oak that was freshly cut
down int eh forest because it's moisture content is high. The Vikings
(and others) used to take freshly riven oak stock and submerge them
in a bog to keep them wet until they were used. But there, they were
trying to retain moisture - not add it in.

I dont' see where soaking 20 year old oak is going to make much
difference.


: A 1"x1" piece of clear oak properly steamed can be tied in a knot. Not
: something I've ever tried.

Hav eyou ever SEEN this done? With what length of wood? How tight a
knot?

I bend white oak for boat ribs all the time and they never get that
flexible.



--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm



"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------
For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption
upgrade to SurgeFTP
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm ----

steveJ wrote:
: On a related note, I've always wondered if steam bending increased the
: rot resistence of wood. I was thinking that when a tree grows there are
: all kinds of mold and fungus spores and bacteria that must be in the
: wood just naturally. But when you steam it, these little buggers would
: be killed. Sterilized.
: Any body ever think of this? I wonder if it would reduce or slow fungus
: growth.

I've never heard of that directly. But there's this:

Using green wood is usually a bad idea in boatbuilding as it promotes
rot. Yet you prefer green wood when steambending.
But the steaming eliminated the tendency for the wood to rot due to
it's "greeness".

So in that sense, steaming helps to prevent rot.

--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm



"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
For a quality usenet news server, try DNEWS, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class
installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dnews.htm ----