Hello.


I have a question about stitch and glue.

I have been reading about it for some time now but I don´t understand one
thing.

After you have stiched the panels.
http://bateau2.com/images/stories/ho...D_w_Frames.jpg


And then glued and glassed everything.
Do you then take the stitches out? Because they will be visible under the
glass.
Or don´t they? And if you are going to sand it then you will sand off the
glass
from top of them.


Taavi

Before I answer, let me tell you: I have never done stitch and glue
myself.

Everything I have read about stitch and glue, though, says to remove
the stitches. They pull them out, don't sand them.

But!!! they remove the stitch _before_ the glass is put on:

http://www.pygmyboats.com/Construction.htm



Taavi wrote:
Hello.


I have a question about stitch and glue.

I have been reading about it for some time now but I don´t understand one
thing.

After you have stiched the panels.
http://bateau2.com/images/stories/ho...D_w_Frames.jpg


And then glued and glassed everything.
Do you then take the stitches out? Because they will be visible under the
glass.
Or don´t they? And if you are going to sand it then you will sand off the
glass
from top of them.


Taavi

Sam Devlin says pull them out. Many other boatbuilders don't care and just
cut them and leave them inside the hull. Have a look at
http://www.clcboats.com/forum/bbs.pl forum - lot of great advices there.
When building my S&G rowing shell I opted for "tabbing" method that involves
filleting in 2 passes and pulling out the stiches inbetween. Either way
(stiches in or out) the holes remain visible under a clear finish. Hope that
helps.


"Taavi" wrote in message ...
Hello.


I have a question about stitch and glue.

I have been reading about it for some time now but I don´t understand one
thing.

After you have stiched the panels.
http://bateau2.com/images/stories/ho...D_w_Frames.jpg


And then glued and glassed everything.
Do you then take the stitches out? Because they will be visible under the
glass.
Or don´t they? And if you are going to sand it then you will sand off the
glass
from top of them.


Taavi

"Dane" wrote in message
oups.com...
Before I answer, let me tell you: I have never done stitch and glue
myself.

Everything I have read about stitch and glue, though, says to remove
the stitches. They pull them out, don't sand them.

But!!! they remove the stitch _before_ the glass is put on:

http://www.pygmyboats.com/Construction.htm


I've never done one either but I've seen both. I've seen some like the page
pygmy page referenced above, and also others where the wires are left in and
ground down with the resin. I guess it would matter on a boat showcasing
woodwork. If a boat is to be painted (or gelcoated), I'd leave them in.

Ed

The thing is if you leave the stiches in you won't be able to apply nice
tiny little fillet on the inside of the seams under the fiberglass tape
since you will need to cover the stiches with it. That means spending more $
of epoxy and much more weight. And looks bad if you finish it clear.


"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
"Dane" wrote in message
oups.com...
Before I answer, let me tell you: I have never done stitch and glue
myself.

Everything I have read about stitch and glue, though, says to remove
the stitches. They pull them out, don't sand them.

But!!! they remove the stitch _before_ the glass is put on:

http://www.pygmyboats.com/Construction.htm


I've never done one either but I've seen both. I've seen some like the
page pygmy page referenced above, and also others where the wires are left
in and ground down with the resin. I guess it would matter on a boat
showcasing woodwork. If a boat is to be painted (or gelcoated), I'd leave
them in.

Ed

Taavi wrote:
Hello.


I have a question about stitch and glue.

I have been reading about it for some time now but I don´t understand
one thing.

After you have stiched the panels.
http://bateau2.com/images/stories/ho...D_w_Frames.jpg


And then glued and glassed everything.
Do you then take the stitches out? Because they will be visible
under the glass.
Or don´t they? And if you are going to sand it then you will sand off
the glass

I'm building a stitch & glue pram now. I used #14 copper wire for
stitches...cut the twisted, outside ends off flush after filleting the
inside, filled the outside gap with epoxy + Cabosil, ground that down
smooth and fair, glassed the outside seams. Yes, they are visible under
the glass but not after painting.

Someone mentioned that wire left on the inside would interfere with
filleting there. I didn't find that to be the case...the holes for the
wire were quite close to the ply edges and tightening the wire pulled it
down so very little protruded upwards. I suppose - had the wires been
removed - that the fillets could have been smaller but personally I
wouldn't want them smaller.


--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Go to http://www.boatbuilder.org/mudpeep.htm. It will cover everything you need to know about a small stitch and glue boat. The stitching and removing is covered on the second page.
---Joel---

www.boatbuilder.org
www.devlinboat.com

I've built several stitch-n-tape boats, and ply on frame, etcetera.
Stitch-n-tape in my mind is by far the best approach and saves the most in
time, money, and complexity.

Many of the older texts and write-ups talk about using copper wire, or metal
wire, etc to do the stitching and then illustrate various techniques for
either leaving them in or taking them out. Some people use car batteries to
heat the wire so they can pull them out, or grind them off and fillet right
over them, or all sorts of other techniques. Believe me, everything has
been done or tried, so you're going to find advice going in all directions.
Sam Devlin's instructions are the closest to correct, but even his
directions can be improved on. My personal opinion is that if you add one
extra step, that all those other discussions are moot. That extra step is
the use of epoxy 'tack welds' in between the stitches. They in effect
replace the stitches prior to doing any fillet or glass work prior to the
stitches being removed, and then the stitches can be removed at your leisure
with no risk to the boat. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about (from
my current project):

http://www.glacierboats.com/tongass/...5-0533_img.jpg

Here's a summary on materials and a suggested order of events for doing the
stitching etc:

Stitching materials that DO work:
- Anything heavy enough to NOT break and that can be tied, twisted, or
otherwise held in place easily: Copper wire that is at least 16 gauge in
size, steel bailing wire (a bit stiff), nylon ties (various widths, see
picture above).

Stitching materials that DO NOT work:
- Anything light weight that is NOT strong enough: Aluminum wire, thinner
versions of copper or steel wire, or the smaller sizes of the nylon ties

Order of events:
- Drill and stitch panels, but leave them a little on the loose side
- Square and level the assembly as appropriate to guarantee that the boat is
square and level
- Tighten the stitches
- Double check square and level
- Add 'tack weld' epoxy between stitches (epoxy thickened with wood flour or
silica etc). On areas where the bends are hard, 'tack weld' on the inside
and outside of the seams (both sides)
- Remove the stitches (clip and pull)
- Build the required fillets, tape the seams, etcetera as specified in your
plans

Some people will disagree with me, but note that it's likely because they've
"always done it this way" (whichever way they are doing it) and have had
good luck. That's completely fine too and you'll likely discover your own
route to success. I'm just saying that what I do does work well and you can
try it if you want ,..or not. It's all fun!

Have fun,
Brian


"Taavi" wrote in message ...
Hello.


I have a question about stitch and glue.

I have been reading about it for some time now but I don´t understand one
thing.

After you have stiched the panels.
http://bateau2.com/images/stories/ho...D_w_Frames.jpg


And then glued and glassed everything.
Do you then take the stitches out? Because they will be visible under the
glass.
Or don´t they? And if you are going to sand it then you will sand off the
glass
from top of them.


Taavi

...That extra step is the use of epoxy 'tack welds' in between the
stitches. They in effect replace the stitches prior to doing any fillet
or glass work prior to the stitches being removed, and then the stitches
can be removed at your leisure with no risk to the boat.

That's the tabbing technique I refered to in my other post.

Other than what Brian suggested I might add that I used slightly thinner
paste for tabbing (thinner than mayo) so that it penetrate the seams. I
taped the outside of the seams with masking taped to prevent the mayo from
pouring out, but that didn't proved to be necessary. I did have quite tight
fit though. I was also worried that such a thin epoxy would pour into the
wire holes and glue the wires, but they all came out easily. I left the
wires in the extreme angles of bow and stern and pull them out after the
final filleting. It all went much easier than I expected.

I've seen several discussions about using a high quality duct tape (gorilla
glue brand duct tape) instead of the wires. This leaves no holes and
accomplishes the same job as the wires. yes/no/I'm an idiot for even
suggesting it.