On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:35:29 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

Fumes? from epoxy?

Fumes from the acetone, actually, needed for the inevitable clean-up.
At least in my somewhat sloppy case. I really need to stop replacing
wet core with new encapsulated marine plywood FROM BELOW.

Eeee-yuck...

R.

A bit off target.

Epoxy fumes are negligible and not, to my knowledge, affected by any air quality
regulations in California or elsewhere.

Polyester amd vinylester resins, when used in open molds, give off significant
amounts of styrene vapors. This is the distinctive smell of these resins. Air
quality regulations in California and more broadly are greatly reducing
permissible levels of emission of styrene and other solvents for all but the very
smallest commercial boat builders.
Some quality-oriented builders (e.g., Tartan) have switched to epoxies, while
others are switching to a process called infusion.
In a typical infusion process, the reinforcement materials are laid up dry in an
open mold, then covered with a vacuum bag. In a small part, a vacuum is drawn
from one end of the part while catalyzed resin is supplied, at atmospheric
pressure, to the other end. The resin is drawn across the part, wetting out the
reinforcements. When the part is fully infused, the resin supply is closed, and
the vacuum compacts the layup for the duration of the cure. A byproduct of this
method is that, once the process is debugged, quality levels are improved over the
wet-layup process, with fewer boids and higher glass-resin ratios.
Production boatbuilders, particularly those whose price-quality position can't
justify the benefits of epoxy, really have no choice but to go this way. For
one-off amateur builders, I've only heard of infusion being used by a few
ambitious multihullers.


"William R. Watt" wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:

Fumes? from epoxy?

California has environmental laws which prohibit releasing fumes from
curing resins into the atmosphere. Boat shops have to have elaborate
ventilation systems. Some have left the state. Someone has developed a dry
vacuum bagging process to contain the fumes from curing resins. The hull
is vacuum bagged dry and the resin is pumped in so it is never in contact
with the atmosphere.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

epoxy in Canada ----

I'm a vendor, but here's some useful info for you folks in Canada

Most epoxy curing agents are considered hazmat to ship and difficult to
ship from the US to Canada (except by motor freight, but that's big
volumes). With these epoxies - we ship to a US address and let the
customer carry them across the border.

We offer a non-hazmat marine epoxy as well that we can and do ship to
Canada via either US mail (add about 1-2 weeks sitting in customers), or
UPS. I think UPS comes to your door for custom or tariff fees??? not
really certain, you guys certainly know... I think UPS gets pricey when
they cross the border.

We did ship 50 gallons of the non-hazmat epoxy by motor freight to canada
recently. Buyer email subject line back was. "50 gallons in the driveway
- no problem!!!!" I can provide anyone with his email address so that
they can get details.

Bottom line is that in canada, probably better to buy in canada, unless
you can pick-up on the US side.

One final point - I think ALL the low temp epoxy curing agents are
probably 'Haz Mat'

Hope this clears up some of the confusion. --


================================================== =====
PAUL OMAN ----- Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Dr - Pittsfield NH 03263
10-4 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199 VISA/MC/Discover
http://www.epoxyproducts.com
Boating site: http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html
================================================== ======

West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal glue.

Meindert Sprang wrote:
"rhys" wrote in message
...

I get good 1:1 epoxy at Smithcraft on Lakeshore Blvd. West here in
Toronto. They have all kinds of fiberglass as well, and all necessary
"extras".

West System is fine, but expensive by comparison.

Unless you are working indoors, it's too cold to glass until spring.
And I wouldn't glass indoors, as the fumes are pretty strong!


Fumes? from epoxy?

Meindert

Matt Langenfeld wrote in message link.net...
West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal glue.

What has not been addressed here is the difference between
inconvienience and problem... Polyester smells, yes that is an
inconvienience. The fumes emitted from curing epoxy although they may
not smell, are in many cases dangerous and should be addressed as well
as or even more than the smell of polyester curing. I still wear a
full "bugface" mask and gloves when using epoxy, and I do not use it
in attached areas of my home, at least not on a regular basis.

All that being said, I have always been happy with Raka products and
prices.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


Meindert Sprang wrote:
"rhys" wrote in message
...

I get good 1:1 epoxy at Smithcraft on Lakeshore Blvd. West here in
Toronto. They have all kinds of fiberglass as well, and all necessary
"extras".

West System is fine, but expensive by comparison.

Unless you are working indoors, it's too cold to glass until spring.
And I wouldn't glass indoors, as the fumes are pretty strong!


Fumes? from epoxy?

Meindert

"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Matt Langenfeld wrote in message
link.net...
West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal
glue.

What has not been addressed here is the difference between
inconvienience and problem... Polyester smells, yes that is an
inconvienience. The fumes emitted from curing epoxy although they may
not smell, are in many cases dangerous and should be addressed as well
as or even more than the smell of polyester curing. I still wear a
full "bugface" mask and gloves when using epoxy, and I do not use it
in attached areas of my home, at least not on a regular basis.

As far as I know, epoxy does not produce dangerous fumes. I remember a story
in this newsgroup about an environmental inspector, visiting a boatyard. The
man was eager to inspect the place and and write a nasty report. He then
learned the yard used epoxy only, and went away immediately, very
dissapointed.

Meindert

the MAS Epoxy folks just got a deal to sell their
products through Boaters World. their products
are great for laminating - markedly better wet-out
than most others and the result is much less brittle
than most, especially WEST.

-mo

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Matt Langenfeld wrote in message
link.net...
West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal
glue.

What has not been addressed here is the difference between
inconvienience and problem... Polyester smells, yes that is an
inconvienience. The fumes emitted from curing epoxy although they may
not smell, are in many cases dangerous and should be addressed as well
as or even more than the smell of polyester curing. I still wear a
full "bugface" mask and gloves when using epoxy, and I do not use it
in attached areas of my home, at least not on a regular basis.

As far as I know, epoxy does not produce dangerous fumes. I remember a story
in this newsgroup about an environmental inspector, visiting a boatyard. The
man was eager to inspect the place and and write a nasty report. He then
learned the yard used epoxy only, and went away immediately, very
dissapointed.

Meindert

I hear lot's of stories... Like them at night before bed. But when it
comes to epoxy hardeners, most are extremely hazardous. Read the
lables, talk to the people who have developed real sensitivities to
the stuff, ask the DEP, ask the shippers, christ, read the F88888'
lable... Epoxy fumes are dangerous and many contain carsenogenics
(spelling not checked)... Do not use epoxy in areas where unprotected
folks will be exposed to the fumes.

Come on Paul Oman, Jaques, et al... You have been here in this group
for years, selling glues, answering carefully targeted questions, and
also sending me emails about your products. Where the hell are you
now, tell these guys what is more dangerous, polyester or epoxy. You
are an epoxy dealer, come on in on this one and give us some facts,
that's what you do isn't it? Where is Jaques, where is Kern (of course
he has been gone for a while) but wtf are the epoxy sellers on this
soooooo important thread?

Scotty Ingersoll, SmallBoats.com...

I'm affiliated with Jacques but I don't speak for him. I don't sell
epoxy either but here's what I can tell you: Polyester is some nasty
stuff to work with. Lots of fumes, more tempermental to improper mixing
ratios, etc. 2-part marine epoxy is also a superior product as far as
protecting your boat. Like any glue product, if you sniff the fumes long
enough, you'll get a headache.

System Three offers some excellent information in their tech data. You
have to register to download the .pdfs though. I've been registered with
them for some time and don't get spammed. I'm partial to their products
because of the excellent information and quick response to inquiries.
Again, I'm not a retailer of thier products, I'm just passing along my
experience.

I have heard of some people developing sensitivety. I'm no expert, but
the info I've read from people with this problem says spend the extra
couple of bucks for System Three, West, or a few others of the
estblished brands. They seem to have less of an occurance of reaction.

Wearing gloves and barrier cream (found at your local autoparts store)
has also helped those who are afflicted. I used barrier cream when I was
an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force. It did a great job protecting my
skin from jet fuels and hydraulic fluid. I imagine it'll do fine with epoxy.

That's all the info I know. Hope this helps.

Matt Langenfeld
JEM Watercraft
http://jem.e-boat.net/


Backyard Renegade wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
.com...


Matt Langenfeld wrote in message


link.net...


West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal


glue.


What has not been addressed here is the difference between
inconvienience and problem... Polyester smells, yes that is an
inconvienience. The fumes emitted from curing epoxy although they may
not smell, are in many cases dangerous and should be addressed as well
as or even more than the smell of polyester curing. I still wear a
full "bugface" mask and gloves when using epoxy, and I do not use it
in attached areas of my home, at least not on a regular basis.


As far as I know, epoxy does not produce dangerous fumes. I remember a story
in this newsgroup about an environmental inspector, visiting a boatyard. The
man was eager to inspect the place and and write a nasty report. He then
learned the yard used epoxy only, and went away immediately, very
dissapointed.

Meindert



I hear lot's of stories... Like them at night before bed. But when it
comes to epoxy hardeners, most are extremely hazardous. Read the
lables, talk to the people who have developed real sensitivities to
the stuff, ask the DEP, ask the shippers, christ, read the F88888'
lable... Epoxy fumes are dangerous and many contain carsenogenics
(spelling not checked)... Do not use epoxy in areas where unprotected
folks will be exposed to the fumes.

Come on Paul Oman, Jaques, et al... You have been here in this group
for years, selling glues, answering carefully targeted questions, and
also sending me emails about your products. Where the hell are you
now, tell these guys what is more dangerous, polyester or epoxy. You
are an epoxy dealer, come on in on this one and give us some facts,
that's what you do isn't it? Where is Jaques, where is Kern (of course
he has been gone for a while) but wtf are the epoxy sellers on this
soooooo important thread?

Scotty Ingersoll, SmallBoats.com...

Backyard Renegade wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Matt Langenfeld wrote in message
link.net...
West, Raka. System Three, E-poxy..all these are 2-part epoxies and are
not polyester. Not fumes. There is a smell but no worse than normal
glue.

What has not been addressed here is the difference between
inconvienience and problem... Polyester smells, yes that is an
inconvienience. The fumes emitted from curing epoxy although they may
not smell, are in many cases dangerous and should be addressed as well
as or even more than the smell of polyester curing. I still wear a
full "bugface" mask and gloves when using epoxy, and I do not use it
in attached areas of my home, at least not on a regular basis.

As far as I know, epoxy does not produce dangerous fumes. I remember a story
in this newsgroup about an environmental inspector, visiting a boatyard. The
man was eager to inspect the place and and write a nasty report. He then
learned the yard used epoxy only, and went away immediately, very
dissapointed.

Meindert

I hear lot's of stories... Like them at night before bed. But when it
comes to epoxy hardeners, most are extremely hazardous. Read the
lables, talk to the people who have developed real sensitivities to
the stuff, ask the DEP, ask the shippers, christ, read the F88888'
lable... Epoxy fumes are dangerous and many contain carsenogenics
(spelling not checked)... Do not use epoxy in areas where unprotected
folks will be exposed to the fumes.

Come on Paul Oman, Jaques, et al... You have been here in this group
for years, selling glues, answering carefully targeted questions, and
also sending me emails about your products. Where the hell are you
now, tell these guys what is more dangerous, polyester or epoxy.

Scotty Ingersoll, SmallBoats.com...

I'm here Scotty...... Paul Oman from Progressive Epoxy Polymers
---- a few points/background - note that 'hazmat' (which most, but not all, epoxy curing agents
are, is hazmat for shipping). All the curing agents are strong chemicals (haven't heard much about
the 'evils' of the part a resin) - that some people build up a contact reaction - not good! Most
epoxies are solvent free,
meaning 0% VOC (volatile organic compounds). Breathing doesn't seem to be problem, only direct skin
contact.

On the other hand, polyester (fiberglass) resins have pretty nasty fumes - which I assume, but do
not know, are bad for you. These resins also dissolve foam (unlike epoxies) which strongly suggests
solvents. Problem with solvents (besides their own chemistry) is that they penetrate into the skin,
probably carrying
chemicals from the resins with them too.

Sorry, afraid I'm not quite the expert here as you may think. Still they are nasty chemicals and
should be handled with respect. Now, I suspect that breathing dust from sanding epoxy, polyester,
even wood, might be equally as bad or worse.
Of course, there are those people that think going out on the water in any kind of craft is both
foolish and risky, and judging from the number of deaths via drowning (vs. deaths from boat building)
they are probably right!

================================================== =====
PAUL OMAN ----- Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Dr - Pittsfield NH 03263