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  #21   Report Post  
Brian D
 
Posts: n/a
Default Carlson Hull program

C'mon ...you're making me feel bad about all that money I spent!

Brian

PS: Your method guarantees fit. Can't argue with that, eh?

"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Brian D" wrote in message

news:MClBb.486707$Fm2.472295@attbi_s04...
It's a chicken and the egg problem. Your frames won't give you panels
unless they define a developable surface so unless you keep it simple

and
are willing to do some trial and error, then spiling to the frames is
somewhat limited in value. The book you find most recommended (and

there
are others, as Jacques and others pointed out, including an old

mechanical
engineering text on drafting that I happen to own) is the book by S. S.
Rable. I believe it's still for sale. Look for "Ship and Aircraft

Fairing
and Development." It's an older text so some of the terminology or

wording
can be a little confusing but if you work the examples as you go through

it,
you'll learn the process. I find it much less error prone to do the

work
with AutoCAD rather than by hand ...pencil-width errors when doing the
necessary triangulation can add up to too much of an error when doing
complex plate expansions, but CAD uses exact calculations (measurements)

and
the line width is has nothing to do with accuracy.

I disagree with Jacques on trying out Rhino 3D (around $1100). I mean I
agree a little, but disagree if you are planning on doing anything other
than a "look and feel" trial of Rhino. The surface techniques take some
time to learn if you are to get it right and can be darn frustrating if

you
don't take the time to learn the ins and outs. The learning process
typically takes a number of months (like any good CAD tool). In summary
though, Rhino will let you define a surface and then constrain it to be
developable (conic sections, cylinders, flat) and can then unroll it to
produce flat panels that will work. You have to be careful with

tolerances
too, else the panels will still produce gaps in the finished boat. Note
that Rhino is a general solid modeling tool, not really optimized for

hull
design. ProSurf is fairly straight forward to learn and they let you
download it for free too. It *is* designed for hull development and has
tools that Rhino does not include that make the process easier and more
accurate. It's about $800, but the trial version will let you save 16

times
for free. If you are a student basically anywhere, I believe both

outfits
will reduce their prices to around $300 though and that's for fully
functional software.

Brian



I am extremely proficient with several CAD programs, will not bore you
with resume'. But when I build my smallboats I mostly find myself
building the boat and getting out the panels the old fashioned way and
then later put them to cad, and then only for repeatability. I start
with bulkheads, sometimes run chine seams, and then make cheap
templates or use a spiling plank to get the pieces out, one time, full
size, even for small stitch and tape boats.

The boat I am finally building for myself, some of you may remember
discussion of a 20 foot skiff, will have 6 planks. I designed it in
Carlson Hulls, mostly so I could get a 3D look at it and some simple
numbers to compare as I shaped the hull. Eventually though, when I
build it, I will probably revert to more traditional ways of getting
out the planks once the station molds/bulkheads and seam battens are
in place.

Let's say it takes the average person 8-12 hours solid time to learn a
new program to the point where they can use it to get out panels, and
then say another 4-8 to either design or transfer over a boat hull and
spit out those expanded panels. You have 16 hours in and you have cut
nothing and these time guestimates are all probably very low as these
software programs are mostly directed toward those with formal
drafting experience/education. Remembering that I am talking about a
simple 6 plank 20 foot boat, (and Santa is not likely to bring me a
CNC machine) I dare say with a few sheets of luan or some battens,
ruler, pencil, skill saw, and a good days work, I could already have
all my panels cut out. No fancy software, no $800 pricetag, just some
basic math and a little common sense... I dunno, I am still not
convinced, Scotty



  #22   Report Post  
Brian D
 
Posts: n/a
Default Carlson Hull program

I was wondering about that. I thought that back when I did some research on
the topic, that I found that ProSurf 'was' Nautilus. Either way, it's
produced by New Wave Systems ...as long as you need only the basics, it's a
good package. If you want the extra stuff, like the Savitski planing hull
resistance package (etc), then you pay for more 'pieces' of software to add
on. I guess that's not too much different than plug-ins for Rhino, although
the Rhino plug-ins tend to cost less. Hmmm...I'm betting that if a guy
(gal) had to learn all three, Rhino, ProSurf, and AutoCAD, that it'd take a
year or so. Add couple of weeks for a photo-realistic rendering and you've
got it. By then, Scotty will have about a dozen boats built and in the
water and will have spent about 1/4 of what you did ... ;(

Brian

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
...
Yes, ProSurf is very good, it's the old Nautilus and it handles surface
development well but it is not easier to learn than Rhino.
We can all agree that whatever method you use, it will take some learning.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:MClBb.486707$Fm2.472295@attbi_s04...
It's a chicken and the egg problem. Your frames won't give you panels
unless they define a developable surface so unless you keep it simple

and
are willing to do some trial and error, then spiling to the frames is
somewhat limited in value. The book you find most recommended (and

there
are others, as Jacques and others pointed out, including an old

mechanical
engineering text on drafting that I happen to own) is the book by S. S.
Rable. I believe it's still for sale. Look for "Ship and Aircraft

Fairing
and Development." It's an older text so some of the terminology or

wording
can be a little confusing but if you work the examples as you go through

it,
you'll learn the process. I find it much less error prone to do the

work
with AutoCAD rather than by hand ...pencil-width errors when doing the
necessary triangulation can add up to too much of an error when doing
complex plate expansions, but CAD uses exact calculations (measurements)

and
the line width is has nothing to do with accuracy.

I disagree with Jacques on trying out Rhino 3D (around $1100). I mean I
agree a little, but disagree if you are planning on doing anything other
than a "look and feel" trial of Rhino. The surface techniques take some
time to learn if you are to get it right and can be darn frustrating if

you
don't take the time to learn the ins and outs. The learning process
typically takes a number of months (like any good CAD tool). In summary
though, Rhino will let you define a surface and then constrain it to be
developable (conic sections, cylinders, flat) and can then unroll it to
produce flat panels that will work. You have to be careful with

tolerances
too, else the panels will still produce gaps in the finished boat. Note
that Rhino is a general solid modeling tool, not really optimized for

hull
design. ProSurf is fairly straight forward to learn and they let you
download it for free too. It *is* designed for hull development and has
tools that Rhino does not include that make the process easier and more
accurate. It's about $800, but the trial version will let you save 16

times
for free. If you are a student basically anywhere, I believe both

outfits
will reduce their prices to around $300 though and that's for fully
functional software.

Brian


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Brian D" wrote in message

news:Ro2Bb.270575$Dw6.918600@attbi_s02...
Scotty,

Don't be scared off. Buy some cheap 1/8" door skin and build a

1/4
scale
model. Use duct tape as your 'adhesive'. You'll find most errors

right
off. Have some fun...

Brian

Seriously though, you will still have to take those fixes up to full
size, why not just spile the panels off the frame in the first place?
Scotty


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
m...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:m9NAb.460002$Fm2.453789@attbi_s04...
Keep in mind that shell plate expansion (what you are doing by

hand
and
with
software) is one of the more challenging parts of a hull design

program.
Even programs produced for more professional work, such as Rhino

3D
and
ProSurf, do not do a perfect job until you learn the ins and

outs
and
tricks
of the trade to make it work right ...a key one being tolerance
management.
It's very easy to create an issue with tolerance stacking,

especially in
an
iterative calculation like what shell plate expansion uses. You

can
nearly
always tell which designers actually built the boat they sell

plans
to
or
not by how large the errors are in the panels. I've heard of

errors
as
large as 5" in a 20' boat for example. Another key is

management
of
curve
complexity. In a developable panel, this primarily refers to

the
combination of rate of change of curvature and also the

tightness
(radius)
of the curves. To be accurate in such areas, the triangulation

(what
the
software is doing) either has to be very tight across the board

or
vary
as
it goes. You'll find that every program is 'pretty good' to a

point,
then
once beyond that particular constraint, the accuracy drops off.

Try
designing a boat with more gentle curves and see how it works

out.
If
the
software allows you to define a measurement tolerance, then lean

towards
making it tighter, not looser. You can loosen the specs after

you
have
a
finished panel that works, but don't do it in the calculation

stage
(kind of
like not rounding off in precision until you report the final

answer
with
the right number of significant digits.)

So, the bottom line is: take heart, your experience is not out

of
the
ordinary. Look into the settings that Carlson makes available

and
continue
to try different approaches until it all comes together.

Brian

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
Has anyone sucessfully built a boat out of unfolded panels

from
this
hard
chine design program?

I just got my design for a 20 footer I am building back from the
engineer (who I had go over the design a one time). I designed the
boat in Carlson and was able to shape the bulkheads there. I was
thinking about expanding the panels out and building that way but

the
more I read, the more I think I might just get them out the old
fashioned way.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com







  #23   Report Post  
Jacques Mertens
 
Posts: n/a
Default Carlson Hull program

By then, Scotty will have about a dozen boats built and in the
water and will have spent about 1/4 of what you did ... ;(


Yes, that's true but my interest is in design more than building. I did
enough building . . .
Nautilus from S. Hollister is now ProSurf, correct. I got it from Westlawn,
it was part of one of their design courses. So, that maybe a solution for
those who are interested: take the Westlawn CAD course. You'll get software
at student's price and a teacher will help you learn it.
Westlawn is good, probably even better now that Dave Gerr is their director.
Thta's if learning design is your goal.
To build one boat, I second's Scotty's method.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:aRABb.498122$Fm2.478352@attbi_s04...
I was wondering about that. I thought that back when I did some research

on
the topic, that I found that ProSurf 'was' Nautilus. Either way, it's
produced by New Wave Systems ...as long as you need only the basics, it's

a
good package. If you want the extra stuff, like the Savitski planing hull
resistance package (etc), then you pay for more 'pieces' of software to

add
on. I guess that's not too much different than plug-ins for Rhino,

although
the Rhino plug-ins tend to cost less. Hmmm...I'm betting that if a guy
(gal) had to learn all three, Rhino, ProSurf, and AutoCAD, that it'd take

a
year or so. Add couple of weeks for a photo-realistic rendering and

you've
got it. By then, Scotty will have about a dozen boats built and in the
water and will have spent about 1/4 of what you did ... ;(

Brian

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
...
Yes, ProSurf is very good, it's the old Nautilus and it handles surface
development well but it is not easier to learn than Rhino.
We can all agree that whatever method you use, it will take some

learning.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:MClBb.486707$Fm2.472295@attbi_s04...
It's a chicken and the egg problem. Your frames won't give you panels
unless they define a developable surface so unless you keep it simple

and
are willing to do some trial and error, then spiling to the frames is
somewhat limited in value. The book you find most recommended (and

there
are others, as Jacques and others pointed out, including an old

mechanical
engineering text on drafting that I happen to own) is the book by S.

S.
Rable. I believe it's still for sale. Look for "Ship and Aircraft

Fairing
and Development." It's an older text so some of the terminology or

wording
can be a little confusing but if you work the examples as you go

through
it,
you'll learn the process. I find it much less error prone to do the

work
with AutoCAD rather than by hand ...pencil-width errors when doing the
necessary triangulation can add up to too much of an error when doing
complex plate expansions, but CAD uses exact calculations

(measurements)
and
the line width is has nothing to do with accuracy.

I disagree with Jacques on trying out Rhino 3D (around $1100). I mean

I
agree a little, but disagree if you are planning on doing anything

other
than a "look and feel" trial of Rhino. The surface techniques take

some
time to learn if you are to get it right and can be darn frustrating

if
you
don't take the time to learn the ins and outs. The learning process
typically takes a number of months (like any good CAD tool). In

summary
though, Rhino will let you define a surface and then constrain it to

be
developable (conic sections, cylinders, flat) and can then unroll it

to
produce flat panels that will work. You have to be careful with

tolerances
too, else the panels will still produce gaps in the finished boat.

Note
that Rhino is a general solid modeling tool, not really optimized for

hull
design. ProSurf is fairly straight forward to learn and they let you
download it for free too. It *is* designed for hull development and

has
tools that Rhino does not include that make the process easier and

more
accurate. It's about $800, but the trial version will let you save 16

times
for free. If you are a student basically anywhere, I believe both

outfits
will reduce their prices to around $300 though and that's for fully
functional software.

Brian


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:Ro2Bb.270575$Dw6.918600@attbi_s02...
Scotty,

Don't be scared off. Buy some cheap 1/8" door skin and build a

1/4
scale
model. Use duct tape as your 'adhesive'. You'll find most errors

right
off. Have some fun...

Brian

Seriously though, you will still have to take those fixes up to full
size, why not just spile the panels off the frame in the first

place?
Scotty


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
m...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:m9NAb.460002$Fm2.453789@attbi_s04...
Keep in mind that shell plate expansion (what you are doing by

hand
and
with
software) is one of the more challenging parts of a hull

design
program.
Even programs produced for more professional work, such as

Rhino
3D
and
ProSurf, do not do a perfect job until you learn the ins and

outs
and
tricks
of the trade to make it work right ...a key one being

tolerance
management.
It's very easy to create an issue with tolerance stacking,
especially in
an
iterative calculation like what shell plate expansion uses.

You
can
nearly
always tell which designers actually built the boat they sell

plans
to
or
not by how large the errors are in the panels. I've heard of

errors
as
large as 5" in a 20' boat for example. Another key is

management
of
curve
complexity. In a developable panel, this primarily refers to

the
combination of rate of change of curvature and also the

tightness
(radius)
of the curves. To be accurate in such areas, the

triangulation
(what
the
software is doing) either has to be very tight across the

board
or
vary
as
it goes. You'll find that every program is 'pretty good' to a
point,
then
once beyond that particular constraint, the accuracy drops

off.
Try
designing a boat with more gentle curves and see how it works

out.
If
the
software allows you to define a measurement tolerance, then

lean
towards
making it tighter, not looser. You can loosen the specs after

you
have
a
finished panel that works, but don't do it in the calculation

stage
(kind of
like not rounding off in precision until you report the final

answer
with
the right number of significant digits.)

So, the bottom line is: take heart, your experience is not out

of
the
ordinary. Look into the settings that Carlson makes available

and
continue
to try different approaches until it all comes together.

Brian

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
Has anyone sucessfully built a boat out of unfolded panels

from
this
hard
chine design program?

I just got my design for a 20 footer I am building back from the
engineer (who I had go over the design a one time). I designed

the
boat in Carlson and was able to shape the bulkheads there. I was
thinking about expanding the panels out and building that way

but
the
more I read, the more I think I might just get them out the old
fashioned way.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com








  #24   Report Post  
Earl Boebert
 
Posts: n/a
Default Carlson Hull program

"Brian D" wrote in message news:MClBb.486707$Fm2.472295@attbi_s04...

[snip]

...the book by S. S.
Rable. I believe it's still for sale. Look for "Ship and Aircraft Fairing

^^^^^ Rabl, if you're searching for it :-)
and Development."


Rabl, S.S., "Ship and Aircraft Fairing and Development for Draftsman
and Loftsmen and Sheet Metal Workers" reprinted 1992 by Cornell
Maritime Press, ISBN:0870330969. Terrific book, but hard to find. In
general, you'll get more information on development from the old
aircraft lofting texts than naval architecture books, because those
guys bent more metal into more shapes.

Cheers,

Earl
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