"Jim Conlin" wrote ...
I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables

Vacuum bagging it would be the way to go for bond strength,
but knitted glass? I didn't think that was all that cost
effective?

One thing I would like to mention is that hardware store
F'glass cloth is NOT worth it. It's actually a bit more
expensive than most mail order, plus it's crappy quality.

John M wrote:
Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use titanium
for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It seems rather
silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old with epoxy and the
latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion too


Actually, it's not silly at all. Secondary bonding with
polyester is rather iffy... nowhere near as strong and
what's more important, less reliable (more prone to voids,
imperfectly mixed resin, more temp sensitive, etc etc) so
it's less likely to achieve it's best strength. Epoxy is not
that much more expensive (considering the expense entailed
by owning the rest of the boat too) and that little extra is
very well worth it IMHO.

The last boat I did extensive rebuild work on was an old
Lightning... considering that I bought new trailer tires &
bearings (or would you advocate buying cheaper used ones?),
new running rigging, new sails, and fairly nice paint (now
this could have been economised on, but would it have looked
as good), the 2 gallons of epoxy that I used to do
structural work was trivial... and I sailed that boat in 20+
knot winds many times, never broke anything that I'd worked
on with epoxy. The first few times I was nervous, but after
that became very confident in the strength of my work. BTW
this included relamating some patches of deck as well as
installing a new mainsheet bridle & traveller, which comes
under quite heavy strain.

OTOH I have seen other boats suffer structural failure in
strong winds... it doesn't look like much fun, but perhaps
the skippers are telling themselves they're glad they didn't
spend the money as they take the pieces home.

DSK

I presume you are saying that all my secondary bonds like bulkheads, liners,
water and fuel tank supports are about to let go. Epoxy has it's place,
ultrlight racing boats where the same strength can be had at much lower
weight and as a glue resorcinol is a pain. I live e in what used to be the
hub of boatbuilding in Canada and have seen many boats new and old repaired
with the same material they were built in that is polyester none that I know
of have yet disintegrated.
John
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
"Jim Conlin" wrote ...
I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables

Vacuum bagging it would be the way to go for bond strength, but knitted
glass? I didn't think that was all that cost effective?

One thing I would like to mention is that hardware store F'glass cloth is
NOT worth it. It's actually a bit more expensive than most mail order,
plus it's crappy quality.

John M wrote:
Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use
titanium for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It seems
rather silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old with epoxy
and the latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion too


Actually, it's not silly at all. Secondary bonding with polyester is
rather iffy... nowhere near as strong and what's more important, less
reliable (more prone to voids, imperfectly mixed resin, more temp
sensitive, etc etc) so it's less likely to achieve it's best strength.
Epoxy is not that much more expensive (considering the expense entailed by
owning the rest of the boat too) and that little extra is very well worth
it IMHO.

The last boat I did extensive rebuild work on was an old Lightning...
considering that I bought new trailer tires & bearings (or would you
advocate buying cheaper used ones?), new running rigging, new sails, and
fairly nice paint (now this could have been economised on, but would it
have looked as good), the 2 gallons of epoxy that I used to do structural
work was trivial... and I sailed that boat in 20+ knot winds many times,
never broke anything that I'd worked on with epoxy. The first few times I
was nervous, but after that became very confident in the strength of my
work. BTW this included relamating some patches of deck as well as
installing a new mainsheet bridle & traveller, which comes under quite
heavy strain.

OTOH I have seen other boats suffer structural failure in strong winds...
it doesn't look like much fun, but perhaps the skippers are telling
themselves they're glad they didn't spend the money as they take the
pieces home.

DSK

John M wrote:
I presume you are saying that all my secondary bonds like bulkheads, liners,
water and fuel tank supports are about to let go.

Umm, no

... Epoxy has it's place,
ultrlight racing boats where the same strength can be had at much lower
weight and as a glue resorcinol is a pain. I live e in what used to be the
hub of boatbuilding in Canada and have seen many boats new and old repaired
with the same material they were built in that is polyester none that I know
of have yet disintegrated.

If you're talking about the structural 2ndary bonds as put
in by the builder, consider this:
1- they are made under ideal conditions by workmen who
presumably are expert with the materials
2- they still break often enough that it's not uncommon at
all to see grid work, bulkhead tabbing, etc etc, pop loose
from inside the hull.

I was talking about repairs/upgrades done in a garage by the
home handy-man (who in some cases is more expert & produces
higher standard of craftsmanship than the "pro" in the
boatbuilding shop), of which I have also seen many break
loose. If you hang around boats & sailors that push their
boats in hard conditions for a few years, you'll see it
too... and probably hear more. In some cases, a single such
bond failure provides years worth of amusing stories.

Regards- Doug King

Lew Hodgett wrote:


Somebody wrote:

It would cost you less, and be far less work, to buy a better boat.


Michiel wrote:

Do you really think so? Do you have rough estimates or "guesstimates"
and a suggestion for a different boat?


I'll try to put this into perspective for you.

I buy materials at prices you would dream about getting.

That is because I buy large quantities of epoxy, deck foam, knitted
glass and fairing compound.

My guess is that it will cost me at least $2,000 for materials and at
least a year's time.

You will pay more.

Add in money for tools and supplies.

I'd budget at least $200 for just abrasives and another $200 for sanding
equipment, if you don't already have them.

You'll spend another $500 for misc tools and supplies.

DAMHIKT

Does this give you enough incentive to recognize that attempting to
rehab a 20 ft, 20+ year old fiberglass boat is economically an unsound
path.

Lew

It depends entirely on how you value the labour required. My labour
is free for me, but for this job, I wouldn't work for less than 15
bucks / hour.

I would pay 10 bucks an hour to mess about on a boat, if it was mine
and the value of the labour remains in the boat.

The rest is arithmatic.

Terry K

John,

Do you do body repairs with window screen and plastic filler?
You can make it look just as good as steel?

If you would go to sea in a boat patched with polyester, be my guest.
One of the famous ones in the book is "Tomahawk". She sank during a
Bayview Mackinac in the mid 80's. That was a polyester patch job.

A clients mast came down when it buckled at the spreaders because the
tabbing for the anchor for the lower came away from the hull side.

I helped recover a sloop that lost its steering because one of the
turning blocks came adrift.

Those last two were both bond failures of parts installed at teh
builders yard.

We are set up for resin infusion in several versions (skrimp, spike and
texp2) but none are well suited to most non-molded assemblies (that most
repairs).

Epoxy is used in repairs for two reasons, it has cohesive and adhesive
bond properties that far exceed that of poly or vinylesters. We
specialize in fixing things - once. Our clients only talk to us if they
want a first class job. We clould save the client 1or 200$ on a 5k$ job
by using cheap materials. We use only epoxy.

You can do what you want, but some of are not interested in doing it ont
he cheap - cheap is the price of low value.

Matt Colie

John M wrote:
Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use titanium
for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It seems rather
silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old with epoxy and the
latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion too
John
"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...

I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables


"DSK" wrote in message
...

Lew Hodgett wrote:

You haven't priced materials lately, have you?

Think OIL.


Actually, I have- am buying materials for a carbon fiber
rowing dinghy. But I think you grossly (very grossly)
overestimated the cost & amount of materials needed for
replacing core on a 20' deck.

It's not going to be free, that's not what I'm saying.

DSK

Matt:
Actually I don't do repairs on cars.
You mention Tomahawk and her "polyester patch job" how about the other five
boats that lost their masts or the eight that were damaged or for that
matter the 96 that dropped out. All polyester patches?
There are many boats built down to a price that will have parts falling off.
But think off all the plain old polyester and glass boats that have been
around the world with little or no problems.
Which brings to mind a British catamaran whose name escapes me at present,
that was built for a round the world record attempt in 1999 or 2000. Built
of prepreg epoxy, carbon fiber all the latest high tech. On its first test
run in weather that wasn't to bad its bows fell off. I won't blame the epoxy
or carbon fiber.
My point is epoxy and polyester have their place but nothing replaces proper
building practices.
With prices of epoxy at $74 a gallon and polyester at $105 for 5 gallons
it's hard to believe there is only a $200 difference in a $5000 job.
John



"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
John,

Do you do body repairs with window screen and plastic filler?
You can make it look just as good as steel?

If you would go to sea in a boat patched with polyester, be my guest.
One of the famous ones in the book is "Tomahawk". She sank during a
Bayview Mackinac in the mid 80's. That was a polyester patch job.

A clients mast came down when it buckled at the spreaders because the
tabbing for the anchor for the lower came away from the hull side.

I helped recover a sloop that lost its steering because one of the turning
blocks came adrift.

Those last two were both bond failures of parts installed at teh builders
yard.

We are set up for resin infusion in several versions (skrimp, spike and
texp2) but none are well suited to most non-molded assemblies (that most
repairs).

Epoxy is used in repairs for two reasons, it has cohesive and adhesive
bond properties that far exceed that of poly or vinylesters. We
specialize in fixing things - once. Our clients only talk to us if they
want a first class job. We clould save the client 1or 200$ on a 5k$ job
by using cheap materials. We use only epoxy.

You can do what you want, but some of are not interested in doing it ont
he cheap - cheap is the price of low value.

Matt Colie

John M wrote:
Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use
titanium for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It seems
rather silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old with epoxy
and the latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion too
John
"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...

I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables


"DSK" wrote in message
t...

Lew Hodgett wrote:

You haven't priced materials lately, have you?

Think OIL.


Actually, I have- am buying materials for a carbon fiber
rowing dinghy. But I think you grossly (very grossly)
overestimated the cost & amount of materials needed for
replacing core on a 20' deck.

It's not going to be free, that's not what I'm saying.

DSK

John M wrote:
I presume you are saying that all my secondary bonds like bulkheads, liners,
water and fuel tank supports are about to let go. Epoxy has it's place,
ultrlight racing boats where the same strength can be had at much lower
weight and as a glue resorcinol is a pain. I live e in what used to be the
hub of boatbuilding in Canada and have seen many boats new and old repaired
with the same material they were built in that is polyester none that I know
of have yet disintegrated.
John

Hey, I've seen many boats built with polyester that had the
tabbing pull free from plywood bulkheads. You can use
polyester if you like, but given the amount of epoxy you're
talking about for a 20' deck repair, the cost difference is
trivial. And I think 2 x 12 oz biaxial would be ample
for an inside skin, given typical spans you'd find on this
size of boat and a core thickness of = 1/2".

Evan Gatehouse

Subject

Epoxy is an adhesive, polyester is not.

Next.

Lew

John,

Any part, piece -whatever of any racing yacht can fail at any time, I
mentioned "Tomahawk" because I knew some of the cast involved and it was
a polyester bond that failed in this case and caused the loss of the
vessel.

I agree that there is no substitute for proper practice.

My problem with polyester is simple, the bond strength is poor. If you
can do it all as a wet assembly, that is fine, but if you need to put
pieces together - polyester can be problems. I have done whole boats
with poly and vinylester (which is another animal). I completely agree
that it has its place. Most of them are in a mold.

If a guy is going to work under less than ideal conditions and do small
patches (less than a mold section), I always that they look at the
additional cost of epoxy. If you could get p or vest resin that had
nice little measuring pumps and was as well behaved, I still would be
hard pressed to advise it for repairs.

At the prices I pay 5 gallons (the smallest we buy) of poly is about
85$us, vinyl is about 140$us and 250$us for gallon mix - includes harder
of epoxy. The way any job works, labor is the big cost and the labor to
use gallons of resin is a big number.

The only problem with epoxy for repairs that require cosmetic surfacing
is taht you have to do a intermediate coat of vinyl to bond the
polyester gelcoat to the epoxy. Gelcoat will just fall right out of an
epoxy patch - given half a chance - it will has been know to do the same
to a poly repair but vinylester is good enough to bond the two.

And - when it come to the failures of super-lights - I don't even count
them as real. Like the ICAA boat that folded and sank off San Diego.
There is a reason why the shipwrights that I knew as a child worked the
way that they did. I have come to understand that all the wouldful new
analysis stuff like FEA, CFD and such are nice, but the people that have
been out there better not use it to determine what the sea can do.

Matt Colie



John M wrote:
Matt:
Actually I don't do repairs on cars.
You mention Tomahawk and her "polyester patch job" how about the other five
boats that lost their masts or the eight that were damaged or for that
matter the 96 that dropped out. All polyester patches?
There are many boats built down to a price that will have parts falling off.
But think off all the plain old polyester and glass boats that have been
around the world with little or no problems.
Which brings to mind a British catamaran whose name escapes me at present,
that was built for a round the world record attempt in 1999 or 2000. Built
of prepreg epoxy, carbon fiber all the latest high tech. On its first test
run in weather that wasn't to bad its bows fell off. I won't blame the epoxy
or carbon fiber.
My point is epoxy and polyester have their place but nothing replaces proper
building practices.
With prices of epoxy at $74 a gallon and polyester at $105 for 5 gallons
it's hard to believe there is only a $200 difference in a $5000 job.
John



"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

John,

Do you do body repairs with window screen and plastic filler?
You can make it look just as good as steel?

If you would go to sea in a boat patched with polyester, be my guest.
One of the famous ones in the book is "Tomahawk". She sank during a
Bayview Mackinac in the mid 80's. That was a polyester patch job.

A clients mast came down when it buckled at the spreaders because the
tabbing for the anchor for the lower came away from the hull side.

I helped recover a sloop that lost its steering because one of the turning
blocks came adrift.

Those last two were both bond failures of parts installed at teh builders
yard.

We are set up for resin infusion in several versions (skrimp, spike and
texp2) but none are well suited to most non-molded assemblies (that most
repairs).

Epoxy is used in repairs for two reasons, it has cohesive and adhesive
bond properties that far exceed that of poly or vinylesters. We
specialize in fixing things - once. Our clients only talk to us if they
want a first class job. We clould save the client 1or 200$ on a 5k$ job
by using cheap materials. We use only epoxy.

You can do what you want, but some of are not interested in doing it ont
he cheap - cheap is the price of low value.

Matt Colie

John M wrote:

Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use
titanium for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It seems
rather silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old with epoxy
and the latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion too
John
"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...


I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables


"DSK" wrote in message
et...


Lew Hodgett wrote:


You haven't priced materials lately, have you?

Think OIL.


Actually, I have- am buying materials for a carbon fiber
rowing dinghy. But I think you grossly (very grossly)
overestimated the cost & amount of materials needed for
replacing core on a 20' deck.

It's not going to be free, that's not what I'm saying.

DSK

Matt:
Some figures taken from West Epoxy web site where they did tests on bonding
strength of epoxy and polyester.
Tensile strength of original glass 26,198 PSI
Tensile strength of poly repair 18,460 PSI
Tensile of epoxy repair 21,404 PSI
Therefore polyester has a strength 13% less than epoxy at a cost of about
500% more.

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
John,

Any part, piece -whatever of any racing yacht can fail at any time, I
mentioned "Tomahawk" because I knew some of the cast involved and it was a
polyester bond that failed in this case and caused the loss of the vessel.

The way many boats are built today anything can fall off.

I agree that there is no substitute for proper practice.

My problem with polyester is simple, the bond strength is poor. If you
can do it all as a wet assembly, that is fine, but if you need to put
pieces together - polyester can be problems. I have done whole boats with
poly and vinylester (which is another animal). I completely agree that it
has its place. Most of them are in a mold.

See the beginning paragraph 13% difference.

If a guy is going to work under less than ideal conditions and do small
patches (less than a mold section), I always that they look at the
additional cost of epoxy. If you could get p or vest resin that had nice
little measuring pumps and was as well behaved, I still would be hard
pressed to advise it for repairs.

Polyester isn't that fussy but I use a Nalge dispenser and never had a
problem.


At the prices I pay 5 gallons (the smallest we buy) of poly is about
85$us, vinyl is about 140$us and 250$us for gallon mix - includes harder
of epoxy. The way any job works, labor is the big cost and the labor to
use gallons of resin is a big number.

The only problem with epoxy for repairs that require cosmetic surfacing is
taht you have to do a intermediate coat of vinyl to bond the polyester
gelcoat to the epoxy. Gelcoat will just fall right out of an epoxy
patch - given half a chance - it will has been know to do the same to a
poly repair but vinylester is good enough to bond the two.

And - when it come to the failures of super-lights - I don't even count
them as real. Like the ICAA boat that folded and sank off San Diego.
There is a reason why the shipwrights that I knew as a child worked the
way that they did. I have come to understand that all the wouldful new
analysis stuff like FEA, CFD and such are nice, but the people that have
been out there better not use it to determine what the sea can do.

Matt Colie

My main problem with epoxy is the people who think it's the holy grail,
I think anyone who
recommends epoxy to repair a deck on a 25 year old 20 foot boat has either
too much money or has been reading too many newsgroups.
I would think that the boat that started this discussion could be repaired
at minimum cost and be as strong as the good side of the deck. No more is
needed.
John


John M wrote:
Matt:
Actually I don't do repairs on cars.
You mention Tomahawk and her "polyester patch job" how about the other
five boats that lost their masts or the eight that were damaged or for
that matter the 96 that dropped out. All polyester patches?
There are many boats built down to a price that will have parts falling
off. But think off all the plain old polyester and glass boats that have
been around the world with little or no problems.
Which brings to mind a British catamaran whose name escapes me at
present, that was built for a round the world record attempt in 1999 or
2000. Built of prepreg epoxy, carbon fiber all the latest high tech. On
its first test run in weather that wasn't to bad its bows fell off. I
won't blame the epoxy or carbon fiber.
My point is epoxy and polyester have their place but nothing replaces
proper building practices.
With prices of epoxy at $74 a gallon and polyester at $105 for 5 gallons
it's hard to believe there is only a $200 difference in a $5000 job.
John



"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

John,

Do you do body repairs with window screen and plastic filler?
You can make it look just as good as steel?

If you would go to sea in a boat patched with polyester, be my guest.
One of the famous ones in the book is "Tomahawk". She sank during a
Bayview Mackinac in the mid 80's. That was a polyester patch job.

A clients mast came down when it buckled at the spreaders because the
tabbing for the anchor for the lower came away from the hull side.

I helped recover a sloop that lost its steering because one of the
turning blocks came adrift.

Those last two were both bond failures of parts installed at teh builders
yard.

We are set up for resin infusion in several versions (skrimp, spike and
texp2) but none are well suited to most non-molded assemblies (that most
repairs).

Epoxy is used in repairs for two reasons, it has cohesive and adhesive
bond properties that far exceed that of poly or vinylesters. We
specialize in fixing things - once. Our clients only talk to us if they
want a first class job. We clould save the client 1or 200$ on a 5k$ job
by using cheap materials. We use only epoxy.

You can do what you want, but some of are not interested in doing it ont
he cheap - cheap is the price of low value.

Matt Colie

John M wrote:

Just wondering do you guys that use epoxy for everything also use
titanium for auto body repairs after all it's better than steel. It
seems rather silly to repair a polyester and glass boat which is old
with epoxy and the latest high tech fabrics. Why not try resin infusion
too
John
"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...


I figure it'd be somewhat over $10/ft^2.
Core-cell $4-
maybe 4 laminations of:
12 oz. knitted Glass $10/yd = $.80/ft^2/ply
epoxy $70/gal = $.60/ft^2/ply

paint $1/ft^2
plus abrasives, peel ply, fillers, vacuum bag consumables


"DSK" wrote in message
. net...


Lew Hodgett wrote:


You haven't priced materials lately, have you?

Think OIL.


Actually, I have- am buying materials for a carbon fiber
rowing dinghy. But I think you grossly (very grossly)
overestimated the cost & amount of materials needed for
replacing core on a 20' deck.

It's not going to be free, that's not what I'm saying.

DSK