Well I was hoping the Timber Rot, thread would work its way up to
something useful for boat guys. Quite a few industries have
"Systems"in place - but it seems I couldn't find one for boats.
As a consultant - I track and solve problems through systems.

Glasshouses have systems in place to reduce fungus damage by
controlling temp, humidify with ventilation, - constant checks and
sprays, and removing isolating potential problems, are part of the
horticultural way of life, and well understood.
The same is true of many food and health related industries - system
related problem solving - But I am stuffed if I could see any kind of
a system for boats?
This also gave me reason to doubts the experts here, as or anywhere on
this subject - As there was no system procedures as a base for
discussion, or did they have any, or know what the hell it was.
But a part was called constant monitoring - so what are the monitoring
procedures - what is it you are looking for the idicators?
The experts here didn't know?
So it just a bunch of trade types - not experts at all.

So my only conclusion for the bluster, bull****, sales hype, and
miracle solutions, and the general ignorance - as its seems even the
expert boat builders are not relying on second hand mis-quoted info -
A point is, one boat builder said as long as the timber is less than
20% moisture - it is safe - I say Rubbish, as any drip of
condensation on just a small portion of that timber is enough to
activate the spore, one slight piece of dampness, drip, condensation,
or under a damp rag is enough - You should be visually aware of any
slight water stain on that timber. The dangers of sealing in timber,
lack of ventilation - storing boats, even out of water is a dangerous
practice, without ventilation.

Some of the generalization by experts is stupid and cavalier.
I think the only real solution, is in fact for Marine Safety
Authorities. As I see it as their responsibility to set out some
guidelines, and make recommendations on a series of steps for both
prevention discursion and repair, with a practical website with
sensible photos for ID etc.

To many experts, to much bluster, to much ignorance, a dangerous
combination - So we need someone to sign the bloody thing off with
some authority.

And I would say its in the ballpark of the Marine Authorities.
You would think they would have had something sorted out by now?
Interesting thread.

Its still rational.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:24:18 +1200,
wrote:


Well I was hoping the Timber Rot, thread would work its way up to
something useful for boat guys. Quite a few industries have
"Systems"in place - but it seems I couldn't find one for boats.
As a consultant - I track and solve problems through systems.

Glasshouses have systems in place to reduce fungus damage by
controlling temp, humidify with ventilation, - constant checks and
sprays, and removing isolating potential problems, are part of the
horticultural way of life, and well understood.
The same is true of many food and health related industries - system
related problem solving - But I am stuffed if I could see any kind of
a system for boats?
This also gave me reason to doubts the experts here, as or anywhere on
this subject - As there was no system procedures as a base for
discussion, or did they have any, or know what the hell it was.
But a part was called constant monitoring - so what are the monitoring
procedures - what is it you are looking for the idicators?
The experts here didn't know?
So it just a bunch of trade types - not experts at all.

So my only conclusion for the bluster, bull****, sales hype, and
miracle solutions, and the general ignorance - as its seems even the
expert boat builders are not relying on second hand mis-quoted info -
A point is, one boat builder said as long as the timber is less than
20% moisture - it is safe - I say Rubbish, as any drip of
condensation on just a small portion of that timber is enough to
activate the spore, one slight piece of dampness, drip, condensation,
or under a damp rag is enough - You should be visually aware of any
slight water stain on that timber. The dangers of sealing in timber,
lack of ventilation - storing boats, even out of water is a dangerous
practice, without ventilation.

Some of the generalization by experts is stupid and cavalier.
I think the only real solution, is in fact for Marine Safety
Authorities. As I see it as their responsibility to set out some
guidelines, and make recommendations on a series of steps for both
prevention discursion and repair, with a practical website with
sensible photos for ID etc.

To many experts, to much bluster, to much ignorance, a dangerous
combination - So we need someone to sign the bloody thing off with
some authority.

And I would say its in the ballpark of the Marine Authorities.
You would think they would have had something sorted out by now?
Interesting thread.

Its still rational.

Why must the government solve your problem, you imply you are an
expert in problem solving. Research the facts and formulate a system
for yourself, you might even get rich marketing it.

Bill Gough says:

Research the facts and formulate a system
for yourself, you might even get rich marketing it.

You're missing his point, Bill. He specifically stated "As a consultant - I
track and solve problems through systems."

This consultant doesn't _do_ research, he relies on others' rules of thumb,
which are resold at a profit. That's the way it reads to me.

Now, if he had offered money for someone to develop a "system" to prevent rot
in boats (as _if_....) then maybe I't'd-a bin diff'runt.

Steve

To many experts, to much bluster, to much ignorance, a dangerous
combination - So we need someone to sign the bloody thing off with
some authority.

Yes, and much of the bluster & ignorance comes from "consultants". As a former
"consultant" and a chemist who worked on biological control (in the water
treatment industry) for many years, I've found that the average boat builder &
restorer probably has a better handle on this problem than you do. "Them that
can, do & them that can't, ....consult." ).
Greg Sefton

"Consultant": N. "Someone who comes in from out of town and shows slides."

Seriously, rot is just a fact of life. What are folks going to do when you
can't get treated lumber for your outdoor projects any longer. I understand
it will be banned soon. Probably due to the efforts of the steel and
concrete industries.

--


Keith
__
Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.
"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Bill Gough says:

Research the facts and formulate a system
for yourself, you might even get rich marketing it.

You're missing his point, Bill. He specifically stated "As a consultant -
I
track and solve problems through systems."

This consultant doesn't _do_ research, he relies on others' rules of
thumb,
which are resold at a profit. That's the way it reads to me.

Now, if he had offered money for someone to develop a "system" to prevent
rot
in boats (as _if_....) then maybe I't'd-a bin diff'runt.

Steve

For years (since about 1988 or so) my brother (a professional
carpenter/contractor since the mid '70s and still going strong) has
professed that "pt lumber will be the asbestos of the 'oughts'". It has
little to do with the steel and concrete industry. It has to do with
birth defects, accumulated toxins that lead to chronic illnesses, etc.
The chems in pt lumber are nasty stuff. Duh... it's made to kill stuff.

What will we do? We'll create a big enough market for recycled plastic
lumber to make it more economical for the people who produce it which
will in turn bring the prices down. And us, the bottom of the market,
insignificant home boat builders will truly benefit from it. (IMO)
Ed

Keith wrote:
"Consultant": N. "Someone who comes in from out of town and shows slides."

Seriously, rot is just a fact of life. What are folks going to do when you
can't get treated lumber for your outdoor projects any longer. I understand
it will be banned soon. Probably due to the efforts of the steel and
concrete industries.

Bray Haven wrote:

Yes, and much of the bluster & ignorance comes from "consultants". As a former
"consultant" and a chemist who worked on biological control (in the water
treatment industry) for many years, I've found that the average boat builder &
restorer probably has a better handle on this problem than you do. "Them that
can, do & them that can't, ....consult." ).
Greg Sefton

Ouch... (grin). Catch you before your morning coffee did we? (grin)

Ed

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:28:06 -0500, "Keith"
wrote:

"Consultant": N. "Someone who comes in from out of town and shows slides."

Seriously, rot is just a fact of life. What are folks going to do when you
can't get treated lumber for your outdoor projects any longer. I understand
it will be banned soon. Probably due to the efforts of the steel and
concrete industries.

CCA treated lumber has arsenic in it. Arsenic is bad. The lumber
industry has already created other pressure-treating techniques that
use chemicals that work just as well but are not nearly so toxic to
mammals. I believe that CCA will be gone in the US in the next few
years, to be replaced by other materials.

- Rick Tyler

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...

Bray Haven wrote:

Yes, and much of the bluster & ignorance comes from "consultants". As a
former
"consultant" and a chemist who worked on biological control (in the
water
treatment industry) for many years, I've found that the average boat
builder &
restorer probably has a better handle on this problem than you do. "Them
that
can, do & them that can't, ....consult." ).
Greg Sefton

Ouch... (grin). Catch you before your morning coffee did we? (grin)

Ed

Bray is right. Perhaps not diplomatic.... But right

Which is why my 38 year old plywood yacht, which has no bulkheads, and
an open tent type cover which allows the wind to blow through and keeps
the temperatures down inside, has absolutely no rot. I sponge every drop
out of the boat every time I am on the boat.
Ventilation and removal of water are the keys. I guess it's like
putting out fires, remove one part of the triangle(spores, moisture and
temperature in the case of rot), and the problem doesn't exist.

Andrew.

"bioengineer@ burntmail.com" wrote:

Well I was hoping the Timber Rot, thread would work its way up to
something useful for boat guys. Quite a few industries have
"Systems"in place - but it seems I couldn't find one for boats.
As a consultant - I track and solve problems through systems.

Glasshouses have systems in place to reduce fungus damage by
controlling temp, humidify with ventilation, - constant checks and
sprays, and removing isolating potential problems, are part of the
horticultural way of life, and well understood.
The same is true of many food and health related industries - system
related problem solving - But I am stuffed if I could see any kind of
a system for boats?
This also gave me reason to doubts the experts here, as or anywhere on
this subject - As there was no system procedures as a base for
discussion, or did they have any, or know what the hell it was.
But a part was called constant monitoring - so what are the monitoring
procedures - what is it you are looking for the idicators?
The experts here didn't know?
So it just a bunch of trade types - not experts at all.

So my only conclusion for the bluster, bull****, sales hype, and
miracle solutions, and the general ignorance - as its seems even the
expert boat builders are not relying on second hand mis-quoted info -
A point is, one boat builder said as long as the timber is less than
20% moisture - it is safe - I say Rubbish, as any drip of
condensation on just a small portion of that timber is enough to
activate the spore, one slight piece of dampness, drip, condensation,
or under a damp rag is enough - You should be visually aware of any
slight water stain on that timber. The dangers of sealing in timber,
lack of ventilation - storing boats, even out of water is a dangerous
practice, without ventilation.

Some of the generalization by experts is stupid and cavalier.
I think the only real solution, is in fact for Marine Safety
Authorities. As I see it as their responsibility to set out some
guidelines, and make recommendations on a series of steps for both
prevention discursion and repair, with a practical website with
sensible photos for ID etc.

To many experts, to much bluster, to much ignorance, a dangerous
combination - So we need someone to sign the bloody thing off with
some authority.

And I would say its in the ballpark of the Marine Authorities.
You would think they would have had something sorted out by now?
Interesting thread.

Its still rational.