Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask
him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government
employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the
administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...
Brian D a écrit :
Are you in France? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Others that I've spoken
to had quite a different story to tell, so it must vary a lot country by
country I'd say. Using your 1.3 ratio BTW, my wife and I have a joint
income of $130K Euros and this is not unusual ...but our combined tax
rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve
before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age
requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). If our retirement keeps
on like it has (it includes world wide investments for diversity and
growth), then our income will remain unchanged when we retire and we'll
have medical at the same rate. Sounds like you and I are doing very much
the same, maybe you are doing a bit better. In this country, I'd say we
are middle to upper-middle class. Not tooo upper though. Just OK. We
don't drive Mercedes... Dodge and Chevy is more like it.

Yes, there is no paradise for sure, but freedom to succeed on your own is
a huge factor that should never be taken away from people.

Brian

You're right, I'm in France. Of course income and taxes may vary a lot
from countries to countries in Europe too.. UK taxes are far Higher for
instance. The intersting thing here is that Social security as
unemployment insurance is mandatory and directly cut from your wages. It
refunds 70% of your medical costs, and you can subscribe to a private
complement for 30 euros a month that brings it to 100% for all medical
costs.. The interesting thing is that it is taken to the source, so when I
get a 50K income, it is after all those insurances are paid, no need to
pay further.. and unemployment refunding , although it is 57% of you
salary is calculated on a 365 days a year basis.. so if you got 50 K for
12 months based on days worked (12x20 days), you'll be paid on a 30x12
days basis.. for instance, for a 50K income, you'll get a 42.75 K income
during 3 years if unemployed during this time..
Retirement is paid partly by the social security, and partly by private
companies to whom you have to subscribe when you work (all costs are also
cut at the source) and retirement wages may vary from 80% to 100% of your
salary depending on which private retirement funds you have chosen to
subscribe while you were active. Social security applies event when you
are retired and you will in any case get at least 70% refunded.
In this country lower middle class is usually around 50K a year for a
family although upper middle class is from 60K to 150K.. But i can comfort
you.. only a very few drive bmw or Mercedes in this class, at 40 to 100K a
bit, they are way to expensive even for a higher middle class family..
most of us drive Renault, Peugeot or Citroen cars (dodge or chevy
equivalent here). ;-) French people rather invest in stone than in cars
and most families try to have a vacation house in the countryside or at
the sea which becomes their everyday's home when they get retired..

Phil.

Roger Derby a écrit :
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask
him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government
employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the
administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways
(taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe,
perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles,
etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of
zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-)

phil.

Bateaubois wrote:
Roger Derby a écrit :
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count
it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on
government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little
skim for the administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways
(taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe,
perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles,
etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of
zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-)


AND, the food is better

--

Geoff

GeoffC a écrit :

Bateaubois wrote:

Roger Derby a écrit :

Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count
it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on
government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little
skim for the administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm


Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways
(taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe,
perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles,
etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of
zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-)



AND, the food is better

--

Geoff


MUCH better, I'd say ;-)


--
Phil

And if you buy the plat de jour while traveling, not so expensive either.
And then there's always cheese, bread, and grapes picnicked on the trunk of
the car. Did that in east France while looking at cows, who were looking at
me. That was about 5 minutes from Switzerland ...another great place to
drive around (or ride a bike).

Brian



"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...
GeoffC a écrit :

Bateaubois wrote:

Roger Derby a écrit :

Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count
it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on
government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little
skim for the administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm


Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways
(taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe,
perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles,
etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of
zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-)



AND, the food is better

--

Geoff


MUCH better, I'd say ;-)


--
Phil

Especially in Leon.

Brian



"GeoffC" wrote in message
...
Bateaubois wrote:
Roger Derby a écrit :
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count
it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on
government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little
skim for the administrators.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways
(taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe,
perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles,
etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of
zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-)


AND, the food is better

--

Geoff

That's exactly the same rationalization we heard from Mussolini's followers
in the 1930s.

Vive Il Duce! The trains run on time.

Wasn't it the Russian slaves that rioted when the Tsar freed them? They
liked their freedom from responsibility.

Roger TAAFL

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...

Roger Derby a écrit :
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it,
ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.

Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed,
but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly
maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than
have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse
purposes.. ;-)

Roger Derby a écrit :

That's exactly the same rationalization we heard from Mussolini's followers
in the 1930s.

Vive Il Duce! The trains run on time.

Wasn't it the Russian slaves that rioted when the Tsar freed them? They
liked their freedom from responsibility.

Roger TAAFL

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...


Roger Derby a écrit :

Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it,
ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.


Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed,
but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly
maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than
have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse
purposes.. ;-)



I guess you've been a McCarthy's fan in your young days, huh ? ;-)

Ah, I forgot, we do not have patriot acts nor Ashcrofts here, but whe
have vote for all, no voting machines, no chetaed polls, freedom of
cult, full separation between religion and power, and thousands of years
of history to help us to make our mind on what is democracy... Are we
soviets ? :-)

Phil

Don't worry ...France is already lost to the Muslims. Enjoy what you have
while you have it. France will be the first Muslim country in Europe
(ignoring of course the hostile takeover of the Iberian peninsula during the
2nd Great Jihad ...you know, the thing those terrible Christian Crusades
pushed back off the peninsula after they got tired of the oppression... )

Brian



"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...
Roger Derby a écrit :

That's exactly the same rationalization we heard from Mussolini's
followers in the 1930s.

Vive Il Duce! The trains run on time.

Wasn't it the Russian slaves that rioted when the Tsar freed them? They
liked their freedom from responsibility.

Roger TAAFL

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...


Roger Derby a écrit :

Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it,
ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back.


Yes and we like it this way...
We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public
schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every
road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed,
but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly
maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc..
than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for
worse purposes.. ;-)



I guess you've been a McCarthy's fan in your young days, huh ? ;-)

Ah, I forgot, we do not have patriot acts nor Ashcrofts here, but whe have
vote for all, no voting machines, no chetaed polls, freedom of cult, full
separation between religion and power, and thousands of years of history
to help us to make our mind on what is democracy... Are we soviets ? :-)

Phil

Brian D a écrit :

Don't worry ...France is already lost to the Muslims. Enjoy what you have
while you have it. France will be the first Muslim country in Europe
(ignoring of course the hostile takeover of the Iberian peninsula during the
2nd Great Jihad ...you know, the thing those terrible Christian Crusades
pushed back off the peninsula after they got tired of the oppression... )

Brian

Brian,

I think you have a very disformed sight of the way we treat this point..
We've been dealing with muslim people for over a century, when they were
colonized, and we are very far from the day there will be more mosks in
France than churches... there has been a process of integration for the
twenty last years and the muslims we have (of course there are always a
few individual nutters, but they are quickly expelled when discovered)
are quite tepid believers. You have to understand that we are not a
religious nation, and that most of churches (or temples, there is a
small part of protestant people too) are half empty if not totally on
sunday mornings. Laicity is one of the basis of our constitution and
everybody is living his beliefs the way he wants, as long as it does not
interfere with politics. We have a very pragmatic point of view with
religious problems.. we'd rather integrate people to the society than
try to hammer our point of view into their head..
We don't send preachers to middle east countries to try to convert
'heathens' to good christians.. we are as pragmatic as you are
passionate, and because history has taught us not to repeat our errors
of the twenty last centuries, we are no crusaders any more..
There is no 'jesusland' here and there will not be any 'Allahsland' any
more in the future..judeo-christian culture is anyway to much anchored
in minds to ever allow this.. We are not warm believers, but our culture
is too much tinted with christinanity and its principles to allow France
to ever become a muslim country
And btw there are much more muslims in Germany or UK than in France that
has seriously limited its immigration for 20 years.
On our point of view the country that gives us a real problem with
muslims is UK where very placable legislation give a true shelter to
integrists and potential terrorists (for instance they hold for over a
decade identified terrorists implicated in attempts in France in the 80s
and definitely refuse to deliver them to French justice to be trialed ..
did you know that ?)..have you seen on TV those mollahs preaching jihad
in the streets of London ? Such things are unthinkable here, they'd be
expelled in a day, we have legal emergency procedures to do so..

No, I definitely think you have a sight of France which is widely
disformed by some kind of official propaganda..come and visit us, make
your own mind on the way people live here, you'll be very surprised and
I bet you'll come back with a very different point of view..
You'll see a country with tremendous landscapes, freedom to go wherever
you want without being filed, freedom of speech, excellent and natural
food, harbours full of wonderful sailboats, wonderful trout rivers, very
few large cities, over 2000 years of monuments (the city near which I
live has the best preserved roman coliseum in the world, as the best
preserved isis temple, both are 2200 years old..), and a very cool way
of living...in the spirit of the human rights declaration we wrote over
3 centuries ago..

Cheers,

Phil.