At a plant tour in HuangPu (I won't mention what company was involved), they
showed us how nice the employee apartments were. Apparently, they bring
folks in from out in the country to work at low wages in the city. The
"apartments" had a store and various other things, but after awhile we
noticed that there were no families, no kids. The workers charge against
their paychecks. Looked like indentured slaves to me (22 cents per hour was
a typical labor rate). I've seen more than one analysis that claims there
is about to be a labor revolution in China ...these people are tired of
doing all the work, getting low pay and no benefits, and they aren't going
to do it anymore. The unrest is growing. When all costs are considered,
manufacturing in China is only 30-40% cheaper than in the US ...the pendulum
will come back, don't worry. Times are changing. And if you're too worried
about China being a super power economically, consider how fast it can
change when the economics change, or if they get uppity and threaten Taiwan
too much (or actually do something about it.) Here's a couple of clues: a)
How many products are invented by the Chinese, then produced in China, then
sold world wide ...versus how many are invented somewhere else but are
*manufactured* in China? b) How many American or European companies are
investing in China, paying for the building of factories and buildings with
their own money? and c) How many western nations offer mutual funds and
other investment vehicles that focus on the Chinese economy? It's a paper
tiger, friends. They invent nothing on their own and the primary attraction
is cheap labor that'll likely go away. If the cheap labor folks get more
money, then it won't take much to equalize the cost of business, there
versus here, and the happy happy joy joy ride will be over. In spite of
oodles of companies doing manufacturing over there, note that investors vote
against investing in China. Last I heard, only one company could be found
that had Chinese investment funds that you could participate in. The
investors understand the risk ...and the risk will return the work to other
locations. (I'm betting on eastern Europe, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, etc.
....NOT western Europe and the United States.) The EU is stable and the US
is on a slide... damn fools.

Brian D



wrote in message
oups.com...
I built my MiniCups from cheapo plywood bathroom underlayment and now I
regret it. Should have used marine ply. The underlayment has serious
voids and places where there seems to be no glue. It isnt exactly
waterproof either and water soaks right through. I am now glass and
epoxy reinforcing them. The dinghy I built with marine ply seems very
strong with no voids. Of course, it is also painted with epoxy.
I would not willingly buy anything from China as their politics suck, I
object to slave labor and support the self determination of Taiwan.
Sorry about the political rant.

Brian D wrote:
When you say "China", I think "yeah, right". There is absolutely
nothing
guaranteed about Chinese quality. They can and will cheat whenever
they
can. They are still a communist country and are very difficult to
deal with
legally. I'm not just spouting off ...I work for a blue-chip high
tech firm
and we've had to chase down exactly these issues ...provision of
products
not meeting specifications or quality requirements, using substandard

materials rather than what we asked for, not protecting intellectual
property (confidential disclosures, nondisclosure agreements,
patents, etc
are not respected), and using Kopy Kat materials and products from
Chinese
companies that are illegally copying and violating the patents owned
by
western nations. Chasing things down legally is an expensive
dead-end.
Like I said, it's a big communist country that has little intention
to be
influenced by your concerns, even if they are ethically correct and
the
country WOULD benefit by cooperating with rather than ignoring your
concerns. Taiwan is little better.

That said, I would not trust the adhesives in plywood from China to
always
be correct. I would boil test a sample from every piece of plywood
that I
got and personally inspect the wood itself too. You might find
variation in
wood species in addition to variation in what adhesive they used. To
a
slightly lesser extent, these same issues apply to wood obtained from
3rd
world countries like the Philippines and Malaysia too. Wood from
Europe,
Israel, Canada, or the United States will in general NOT have these
issues,
but keep in mind that much of the available wood (especially Meranti,
Lauan,
and Honduras or Philippine Mahogany) is imported from the countries
that
have more of a quality issue than others. Also, check your ply for
squareness ...many of these other countries just don't have high
enough
quality control and non-rectangular plywood is common. Even the more

reliable countries are getting more slack on producing nice
rectangular
wood.

All wood should be encapsulated with epoxy to waterproof it, and any
species
that may be subject to splitting or checking would benefit from at
least a
light layer of fiberglass, even if only 1-1/2 ounces.

Brian D




"Danielle Anderson" wrote in message
.. .
Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is
made
with
waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of
plywood due
to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous
cracks,
voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they
will be
repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few
cracks,
NO
voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and
only do
the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure.

Jon


"Pop" wrote in message
...
Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has
this but
it
is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was
completely
sheathed in a waterproof material.

1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it
at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it
at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and nothing
else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and
light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for
marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the
edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without
sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone.
If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour
unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys
from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working
conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in
North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but
of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions
fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT
scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down,
even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when
they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older
boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No
more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan".
Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for
decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth
eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a
mountain of insupporatble debt.

All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of
plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs..

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

A friend's wife (native of Panama) told me her kids had asked why everything
was made in China, and she had told them that it was because people couldn't
afford things made in the US.
True, sadly true.
If we used a little foresight to protect our markets like other countries,
goods produced in the US would still be high but so would wages, and
American workers would be able to afford $40 jeans.
Instead we buy $14 jeans at Walmart. Can't buy electricity at Walmart. Don't
pay house payments to Walmart.
Our money goes to China and it's used to build China's military might.
America's average income is down .6% and corporate profits are up 60%. Do
the math.
I don't think it's a slide, more of a plummet. All empires fall.
MMC
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it
at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it
at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and
nothing
else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and
light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for
marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the
edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without
sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone.
If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour
unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys
from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working
conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in
North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but
of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions
fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT
scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down,
even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when
they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older
boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No
more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan".
Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for
decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth
eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a
mountain of insupporatble debt.

All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of
plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs..

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we
agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions
are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of
manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need
for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our
best interests in mind.

We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both
ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up
....at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the
system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be
willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you
get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country,
region) win.

Brian D



"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it
at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it
at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and
nothing
else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and
light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for
marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the
edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without
sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone.
If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour
unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys
from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working
conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in
North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but
of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions
fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT
scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down,
even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when
they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older
boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No
more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan".
Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for
decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth
eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a
mountain of insupporatble debt.

All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of
plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs..

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt?

Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and
labelling.

Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where
innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their
life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many
reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their
moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the
purse.

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
.............
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Same way I get it from your post. When someone has disdain for success and
then tries to rationalize it with rhetoric, then what can I say? Which
political system thinks like that? 'Bring down' those wages Watt says.
Why? Ever thought about increasing world-wide productivity, local markets
and those abroad? Where there are people and resources, there is room for a
who new economy. The US isn't the only place to produce products and to
sell them. China could do it all on their own if the Communist government
got out of the way. Squelch a free market in the name of 'fairness' or
'equalizing wages' or any other non-free, non-motivating artificial
philosophy and you're dead in the water ...doomed to be nothing more than
another philosophical failure.

When people from poor nations come to the US, their first question is "Where
are the poor people?". Yes, there are poor people here ...many in hopeless
situations, but it wasn't caused by capitalism. It's caused by drugs,
promiscuity, and lack of effort. It's a behavioral issue. I know that in
some environments that you'd have to be nearly super human to overcome the
culture/attitudes in order for you to succeed and that's very sad. That's
one of the factors that leads to these problems, but it's still a behavioral
problem. People have to believe in themselves and in their ability to
succeed, but in many areas that is asking a bit too much. I wish I had a
solution. I really do ...I'm not trying to be mean here, just objective.
And again, unless you live here, you are speaking from a vicarious
experience at most so don't get too bent out of shape on philosophies until
your country proves itself to be our equal.

If governments spent more time getting out of the way, then more people
would produce more and sell more and live better ...it's a deceptively
simple equation that we've proved works. If in a free society, people
choose to live on excuses instead of actions, then who are we to blame?

A friend of mine from India came here and went to college, graduating
without any school loans and with a good GPA. Under the agreement that this
person was constrained by, they were not allowed to work off campus. They
were not allowed to drive. In those conditions and without any financial
sponsor, this person succeeded because they chose to. People need to
understand the value in that, what places like the US provide ...the
opportunity to succeed if you are willing to make the effort. People here
have no excuses that cannot be overcome by their own free will.

And BTW, before you say something like "doing whatever they can from the
purse", how about if you say "they should be doing whatever they can by the
sweat of their brow and the innovations in their head" instead? Rather than
play the victim, shouldn't they choose to be the success? This is what this
country was built on, the attitude of choosing to succeed. There is much to
emulate nowadays, so why don't they?

Brian


"Old Nick" wrote in message
news:42532286.329671590@localhost...
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt?

Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and
labelling.

Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where
innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their
life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many
reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their
moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the
purse.

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed
in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
............
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they
are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to
build
up their membership again.

************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

"Brian D" wrote in message
...


By the way??

How is that Chinese ply?

kevin

Oh that? I dunno ...never bought any. Probably won't. The original poster
probably got scared away...

Brian


"Kevin Gunther" wrote in message
...

"Brian D" wrote in message
...


By the way??

How is that Chinese ply?

kevin

Kevin Gunther wrote:
"Brian D" wrote in message
...


By the way??

How is that Chinese ply?

kevin

Did you not read my post?

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:42:52 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

Troll is supposed to be an insult. In your case, the only other option
is that you are serious. Troll sounds good.

************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/