I have now locked so many aspects that I can tell the rigg has to be 9.5 -
10.5m2 (~115sqft).

I have more or less desided to go Bermuda (or high ratio gaff or gunter.)

Somthing like 60% main and 40% jib.

Now.... what pros and cons is there in designing a rig and letting the
sailmaker sew proper sails?
..... or are there any clear benefits (like price) to adapt to some existing
common class rigg+sail?


Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

Now.... what pros and cons is there in designing a rig and letting the
sailmaker sew proper sails?
.... or are there any clear benefits (like price) to adapt to some existing
common class rigg+sail?

a cheaper home made sail will help you decide what kind of sail the boat
should eventually have. TF Jones has had 2-3 sails on some of his dingys
before he was satisfied. He buys all his sails or has them made. I like
experimenting with small sails I make myself, and I like saving money.

Jones writes, and he's right, the only thing a jib does on a daysailer is
give the crew something to do. (For solo sailing it a nuisance. Our club
used to have a solo dingy race where you had to set the jib and main
yourself. We tied teh edns of the jib sheets together and cleated the jib
on every tack so it wasn't much use.) JA Marchaj did wind tunnel tests on
a variety of small boat sails and found they all performed pretty much the
same. the bermuda sloop rig with jib pointed marginally higher but was no
better all around and worse on some points of sail. I prefer a simpler cat
rig (no jub), especially when I'm making the sail myself and trying to
save money. For low coast and easy handling I've been using sprit sails
which need no hardware but other people prefer other rigs.

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On 5 Oct 2004 15:16:52 GMT, William R. Watt wrote:

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

Now.... what pros and cons is there in designing a rig and letting the
sailmaker sew proper sails?
.... or are there any clear benefits (like price) to adapt to some existing
common class rigg+sail?

a cheaper home made sail will help you decide what kind of sail the boat
should eventually have. TF Jones has had 2-3 sails on some of his dingys
before he was satisfied. He buys all his sails or has them made. I like
experimenting with small sails I make myself, and I like saving money.

Jones writes, and he's right, the only thing a jib does on a daysailer is
give the crew something to do. (For solo sailing it a nuisance. Our club
used to have a solo dingy race where you had to set the jib and main
yourself. We tied teh edns of the jib sheets together and cleated the jib
on every tack so it wasn't much use.) JA Marchaj did wind tunnel tests on
a variety of small boat sails and found they all performed pretty much the
same. the bermuda sloop rig with jib pointed marginally higher but was no
better all around and worse on some points of sail. I prefer a simpler cat
rig (no jub), especially when I'm making the sail myself and trying to
save money. For low coast and easy handling I've been using sprit sails
which need no hardware but other people prefer other rigs.

I sometimes, when cruising boat builder forums get a feeling that there are
only two types of sailing boats.
A) racing
B) anti conformistic cruisers

My goal is to make a good, reliable and stable cruising dinghy ...and fast
to, if possible.

In my case it's like this. I don't build a boat because I like to... It's
because I have to... there are simply no design to buy that fill my demands.
....okey, almost... but the weight of them is 100% too heavy.

I have more or less desided to go Bermuda (or high ratio gaff or gunter.) Footing is still a question though.

My geatest quest is to get it right, or at lest so cloese to good that it
can be fixed without buying new materials.

If I understand right you like to experiment much, so do I.... but in this
case the exeperiments are made on paper and in my head. When I'm going into
action, no losses are acceptable. ;o)

A cat rig (no jib) could very well come into question... High positioned CE
or lowering the ratio (less area)?

How about self turning jibs?


Morgan O.

I share your appreciation for convenient reliable, fast boats.
TYvek sails on a closet pole don't accomplish any of that.

Beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book "100 Small Boat Rigs" by Philip C. Bolger, International Marine, 1984 ISBN
087742182X . It's just full of design ideas.

If there's a one design or manufactured boat whose design you like and whose parts are available, you might well
save a buck or shorten the debugging period by using it.

If you have high expectations for versatility and convenience, and if the boat is big enough to tolerate the
complication, a cat yawl rig has a lot to recommend it. Search for Antonio Dias' 'Harrier' design. Carbon spars
make it briliant.

Morgan Ohlson wrote:

SNIP

I sometimes, when cruising boat builder forums get a feeling that there are
only two types of sailing boats.
A) racing
B) anti conformistic cruisers

My goal is to make a good, reliable and stable cruising dinghy ...and fast
to, if possible.

In my case it's like this. I don't build a boat because I like to... It's
because I have to... there are simply no design to buy that fill my demands.
...okey, almost... but the weight of them is 100% too heavy.

I have more or less desided to go Bermuda (or high ratio gaff or gunter.) Footing is still a question though.

My geatest quest is to get it right, or at lest so cloese to good that it
can be fixed without buying new materials.

If I understand right you like to experiment much, so do I.... but in this
case the exeperiments are made on paper and in my head. When I'm going into
action, no losses are acceptable. ;o)

A cat rig (no jib) could very well come into question... High positioned CE
or lowering the ratio (less area)?

How about self turning jibs?

Morgan O.

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:44:48 GMT, Jim Conlin wrote:

I share your appreciation for convenient reliable, fast boats.
TYvek sails on a closet pole don't accomplish any of that.

I think it's an interesting idea, but not for me, not this time... But it
must be very educational to do experiments like that.

Sometimes a little focus is preferred.


Beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book "100 Small Boat Rigs" by Philip C. Bolger, International Marine, 1984 ISBN
087742182X . It's just full of design ideas.

Actualy a librare owned one lays beside me. I think the book is a little
thin thow. Lean on facts one may say.


If there's a one design or manufactured boat whose design you like and whose parts are available, you might well
save a buck or shorten the debugging period by using it.

My thought was that it may, in some way be more difficult to "adopt another
child"... so it could be more difficoult.

But... perhaps that is worth the effort to just buy well proven sails and
rig.

But, it's not much use if the prices is sky high for the rig choosen. Are
there reasonable priced gear for all classes?




If you have high expectations for versatility and convenience, and if the boat is big enough to tolerate the
complication, a cat yawl rig has a lot to recommend it. Search for Antonio Dias' 'Harrier' design. Carbon spars
make it briliant.

Two, masts!? No, no... not for me. A plain cat could be, but I think I go
Bermuda sloop.


Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

But, it's not much use if the prices is sky high for the rig choosen. Are
there reasonable priced gear for all classes?

you could try a search of the Internet for used sails. they can be cut down.
you might do better locally by calling marinas and yact clubs to see used
sails are for sale. you can sometimes get a complete rig, sails and spars.
you should also be able to get quotes for custom sails by email from
sailmakers on the Internet.

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On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:42:21 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:44:48 GMT, Jim Conlin wrote:

I share your appreciation for convenient reliable, fast boats.
TYvek sails on a closet pole don't accomplish any of that.

I think it's an interesting idea, but not for me, not this time... But it
must be very educational to do experiments like that.

Sometimes a little focus is preferred.


Beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book "100 Small Boat Rigs" by Philip C. Bolger, International Marine, 1984 ISBN
087742182X . It's just full of design ideas.

Actualy a librare owned one lays beside me. I think the book is a little
thin thow. Lean on facts one may say.


If there's a one design or manufactured boat whose design you like and whose parts are available, you might well
save a buck or shorten the debugging period by using it.

My thought was that it may, in some way be more difficult to "adopt another
child"... so it could be more difficoult.

But... perhaps that is worth the effort to just buy well proven sails and
rig.

Three dinghies from the 1950s and 1960s, the 5-0-5, Flying Dutchman,
and Contender share a 10-square-meter medium-aspect ratio mainsail.
Any good sailmaker who does dinghy sails will have patterns.

The Finn dinghy also has a 10-sq-mtr sail, but with a lower aspect
ratio. Also known to sailmakers. The Finn has an unstayed mast. The
others have headstay and shrouds, but no backstay.

Like the Finn, the Contender is a cat-rig. The other two are sloops,
but very different from each other.

I would look for an obsolete mast and boom from one of these classes.
If it is no longer competitive it will be cheaper than a new one. Old
FInns had a wooden mast and boom.

Another possibility is an off-the-shelf 10-sq-m windsurfer rig, with
the sail and spars matched to each other. You would have to devise a
mast step to hold it up as an unstayed rig.




But, it's not much use if the prices is sky high for the rig choosen. Are
there reasonable priced gear for all classes?




If you have high expectations for versatility and convenience, and if the boat is big enough to tolerate the
complication, a cat yawl rig has a lot to recommend it. Search for Antonio Dias' 'Harrier' design. Carbon spars
make it briliant.

Two, masts!? No, no... not for me. A plain cat could be, but I think I go
Bermuda sloop.


Morgan O.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 23:37:38 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:42:21 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:44:48 GMT, Jim Conlin wrote:
If there's a one design or manufactured boat whose design you like and whose parts are available, you might well
save a buck or shorten the debugging period by using it.

My thought was that it may, in some way be more difficult to "adopt another
child"... so it could be more difficoult.

But... perhaps that is worth the effort to just buy well proven sails and
rig.

Three dinghies from the 1950s and 1960s, the 5-0-5, Flying Dutchman,
and Contender share a 10-square-meter medium-aspect ratio mainsail.
Any good sailmaker who does dinghy sails will have patterns.

The Finn dinghy also has a 10-sq-mtr sail, but with a lower aspect
ratio. Also known to sailmakers. The Finn has an unstayed mast. The
others have headstay and shrouds, but no backstay.

Like the Finn, the Contender is a cat-rig. The other two are sloops,
but very different from each other.

I would look for an obsolete mast and boom from one of these classes.
If it is no longer competitive it will be cheaper than a new one. Old
FInns had a wooden mast and boom.

Another possibility is an off-the-shelf 10-sq-m windsurfer rig, with
the sail and spars matched to each other. You would have to devise a
mast step to hold it up as an unstayed rig.

Can sails intended for a stayed mast be used with a nonstayed?

I don't really feel comfortable to buy a very worn mast. I don't find that
worth it since I gonna sail in no-mans-land, Scandinavic northern nature
preservations under harsh conditions.

Mostly it will be nice lakes, but the demands is put to meat the harder
conditions.

Aren't there any big differences between my slow, safe daycruiser and thos
fast racer dinghies?

I must consult a little on area too... I think (see also new thread in
rec.boats today)


Morgan

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

I don't really feel comfortable to buy a very worn mast. I don't find that
worth it since I gonna sail in no-mans-land, Scandinavic northern nature
preservations under harsh conditions.

you can make a strong substantial hollow box mast with solid front and back
and plywood sides, or if you have the tools a "bird's mouth" or similar
hollow solid wood mast, spruce being the preferred material. you'll see
in the literature or on the Internet that the top third should be tapered as
you want less weight aloft to prevent heeling. If you use a gaff, lug, or
sprit rig the mast won't be as tall as a bermudan rig so the weight won't
matter as much. There are plenty of these home made masts on home built boats.

the only advantage of the bermudan rig is the marconi style, ie a tall
mast, to get more lift along the leading edge of teh sail for going
upwind. you don't really want a low aspect bermudan as you will be paying
more for less performance than you could get with a cheaper rig. crusiers
don't need the bermudan rig, racers do for the upwind advantage as races
tend to be won or lost on the upwind leg.

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On 7 Oct 2004 13:28:30 GMT, William R. Watt wrote:

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

I don't really feel comfortable to buy a very worn mast. I don't find that
worth it since I gonna sail in no-mans-land, Scandinavic northern nature
preservations under harsh conditions.

you can make a strong substantial hollow box mast with solid front and back
and plywood sides, or if you have the tools a "bird's mouth" or similar
hollow solid wood mast, spruce being the preferred material. you'll see
in the literature or on the Internet that the top third should be tapered as
you want less weight aloft to prevent heeling. If you use a gaff, lug, or
sprit rig the mast won't be as tall as a bermudan rig so the weight won't
matter as much. There are plenty of these home made masts on home built boats.

Which is "the best quality (performance included) compared to price" when it
comes to attatching sailes to the mast?

What makes the best home made mast... GRP or wood?

What is the price for full performance Al alloy mast profile of standard
quality?

One more fence to overcome is to make the mast really unstayable. Support
needed for self tacking jib though....


the only advantage of the bermudan rig is the marconi style, ie a tall
mast, to get more lift along the leading edge of teh sail for going
upwind.

Yes, and that's in priority, bacause I will not sail open waters. It' s a
matter of comfort to decrease tacking in turbulent narrow passages.

People who have used Gunters seriously usually say things like:
" - I prefer taking the dissadvantage of bermuda (long mast) on dry land
instead of having the problem (2 part mast) a shore.

I go for proper ratio, so I will demand the same mast hight anyway. So if no
really new information goes my way, bermuda it is.

Greetings!


Morgan O.