Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear.
I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.
I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.
It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.
I do appreciate all the advice. I kind of thought I was learning on this
trip so I might be able to ask better questions. But if you think I still
need to learn more, I'll tell my wife I need to go away again. She'll
probably would agree, in theory.

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what
you want to hear
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.

"Ron" ) writes:
Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear.

Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced
sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have
to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat.

I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.

I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.

It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides curve
in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done
on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes
them more effective. His website is probably still active although he
hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now.

It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.

sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on
the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the
bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle
at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more
control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat
to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about
sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to
rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like
a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll
is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under
the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the
sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail
for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong
winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on
a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's
tyvek sail on my website.

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when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to tack.
a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just
used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to
compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key.

put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard
back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be
concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper.
when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start
with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the
centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference.
anything less wasn't noticeable.

there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe
sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find
it eventually.
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I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to
tack.
a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just
used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to
compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key.

put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard
back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be
concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper.
when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start
with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the
centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference.
anything less wasn't noticeable.

there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe
sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find
it eventually.
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:28:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?


Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

P.C. Ford ) writes:

Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races.
They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the
races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward
and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern
shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull.


Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig
in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the
simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a
person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to
read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail
due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a
nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where
paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO.

I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much
new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I
do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power.
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"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

P.C. Ford ) writes:

Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe.
With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look
at that".

I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races.
They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the
races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward
and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern
shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull.

So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This
is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members
and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a
crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is
not going to be a lost art.


Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig
in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the
simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a
person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to
read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail
due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a
nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where
paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO.

I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much
new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I
do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power.

My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out
exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough
(going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the
excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake
and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail
upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little
Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and
hard paddling) around here.

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"Ron" ) writes:
I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?

you may already know that when two people are paddling a canoe, especailly
an empty one, the weight is concentrated at the ends. it's good for
steering but it is not the best weight distribution. when one person is
paddling an empty canoe he or she sits in the centre. this is a better
weight distribution as it leave the ends empty and bouyant. as more weight
is added, be it kids or cargo, keeping the weight centralized would also
be best for sailing. steering under sail using sail balance with or
without a rudder does not require sitting near the end.

as can be seen in photos on my website I sit on the bottom and use a
backrest when sailing. I pulled a back muscle trying to sail sitting on
the bottom without a backrest. the backrest is positioned so my weight is
centralized in the boat. I'd sail for a while without a backrest until
body position for good balance is known. on the 7.5 ft boat the backrest
is a permanent aft deck. on the 11.5 ft boat the backrest is removable and
rotates to change the angle. TF Jones uses a rope and canvas backrest on
his Tuckahoe 12 narrow sailiboat which he sails sitting on the bottom.
sitting on the bottom (on a cushion) keeps the weight low and is less
tiring than sitting up and moving one's weight around all the time to
compensate for the sail. I don't have enough sail on my boats to sit out
on the gunwale but that is how to get more speed and excitement out of the
sailing if desired. I've seen photos of canoe sailors sitting out over the
side just like other small boat sailors.

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Thanks for the info and more important, the encouragement to keep working at
a silly thing like using everything you know to do the best you can.

I don't have tumblehome but could angle the board regardless. I'll probably
wait to try that as it involves changes to the hardware.

I did keep the sheet in my hand and dumped wind (and almost alittle more
during an accidental gybe in the channel leading out into lake Erie). I
did'nt experience "death roll" but mostly excessive weather helm. I'll
search for your DuckWorks article.

Again, thanks.

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Ron" ) writes:
Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of
what I
hear.

Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced
sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have
to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat.

I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of
all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.

I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the
wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to
help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.

It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides
curve
in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done
on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes
them more effective. His website is probably still active although he
hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now.

It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.

sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on
the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the
bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle
at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more
control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat
to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about
sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to
rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like
a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll
is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under
the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the
sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail
for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong
winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on
a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's
tyvek sail on my website.

--
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