Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty


Obviously Wilder doing for a re-post of his message under yet another
nom de plume.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Apr 8, 9:34 pm, Marty wrote:
OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.





Now THERE'S some pressure!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:34:42 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

I'd suggest you look back thru the archives.
I some misgivings regarding the actions leading to the loss of Red
Cloud.
It appeared to me as it has to Neal and others that there were some
serious omissions and dubious decisions prior to and during the
voyage.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Spare us.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:37:37 -0700, "Tom Dacon"
wrote:


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...

Spare us.



From discussion you will learn!




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"PrefersOffshore" wrote in message
...
My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.



I think Joe would be the first to admit that he did a couple of things wrong
and would do them differently or have different equipment or had made other
adjustments or additions to his boat and crew.

Some of the reasons for the outcome, although I can't know directly, might
have been lack of funds for getting the boat truly ready, pushing the
sailing window (which I believe Joe admitted to), and not having a planned
"out" in case of the worst case. All of that said, few have unlimited
resources, unlimited time, and omniscient knowledge. At some point, you have
to just go, and as the comedian says, get 'er done.

My guess is that very few of the people who've posted here have truly been
offshore anything like what Joe and company did.

My longest non-stop for example was a little over 1000 NM (downhill from SF
to Cabo). The weather was picture perfect after the first couple of days of
slogging into the westerly to 30+ knot wind and 10-12 ft. seas for 100 NM or
so. When we turned left, we were on a broad reach, starboard for just about
the entire voyage, with gentle but huge swells, minimal waves, and 15 or so
air. The only rain we encountered was the last night for about an hour.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Spare us.



Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
ctanews.com...

Spare us.




Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Neal (Wilbur), what boat are you sailing these days? Or are you sailing
at all? Pictures?

Jim