Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories of
that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He did
not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and sail
a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew it
all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor sailor
while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE BIG FLAT
WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily they would
be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect at some time
during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out to be pitiful
in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was hanging above
his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last glimpses of his
unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with the
manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch. Did he
ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have panicked,
faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front but
he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he was
unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are very
uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that should
cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle should
have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have been given
and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee cloth to keep her
in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she was panicked and
whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not even try heaving-to
or running before it. The video shows mainsail and jigger sheeted in
tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the rudder failure? What
kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with no stops or inadequate
stops if any such existed. Any real blue water sailor knows how to look
after his rudder and steering gear. You don't allow your boat to be blown
backwards using a drogue from the bows or forced head to the seas with
mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a beating and gets slammed this way
and that. And what about adequate pumps? The holes in the transom caused by
the rudder's banging were well above the LWL so they only took water when it
splashed up or the transom pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily
handled the ingress. And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam?
Any real blue water boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in
case of a breached hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid would
have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter from
strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with a good
weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe and
comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil rigs
that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000 feet of
water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the depth there
is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS but one in
that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a high tech,
semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of water
drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just about
nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples of
how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is going
to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk because
I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time I would
have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused to let
discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really feel I have
the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother Nature that's
needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer. Combine these with a
seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew and you won't end up as a
bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED
CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories
of that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He
did not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and
sail a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew
it all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor
sailor while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE
BIG FLAT WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily
they would be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect
at some time during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out
to be pitiful in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was
hanging above his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last
glimpses of his unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with
the manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch.
Did he ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have
panicked, faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front
but he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he
was unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are
very uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that
should cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle
should have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have
been given and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee
cloth to keep her in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she
was panicked and whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not
even try heaving-to or running before it. The video shows mainsail and
jigger sheeted in tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the
rudder failure? What kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with
no stops or inadequate stops if any such existed. Any real blue water
sailor knows how to look after his rudder and steering gear. You don't
allow your boat to be blown backwards using a drogue from the bows or
forced head to the seas with mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a
beating and gets slammed this way and that. And what about adequate pumps?
The holes in the transom caused by the rudder's banging were well above
the LWL so they only took water when it splashed up or the transom pitched
down. A real bilge pump could have easily handled the ingress. And what
about collision bulkheads or flotation foam? Any real blue water boat has
one or two of these forward and aft just in case of a breached hull in
those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid
would have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter
from strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with
a good weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe
and comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil
rigs that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000
feet of water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the
depth there is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS
but one in that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a
high tech, semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of
water drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just
about nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples
of how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is
going to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk
because I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time
I would have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused
to let discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really
feel I have the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother
Nature that's needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer.
Combine these with a seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew
and you won't end up as a bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated
and prematurely abandoned "RED CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Thomas, Spring Point Light" wrote in message
news:l6SKj.1529$Xy2.29@trndny04...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories
of that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He
did not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and
sail a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew
it all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in
failure. It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor
sailor while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE
BIG FLAT WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily
they would be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect
at some time during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out
to be pitiful in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he
was hanging above his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few
last glimpses of his unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery
grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with
the manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch.
Did he ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have
panicked, faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front
but he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he
was unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they
are very uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing
that should cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle
should have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have
been given and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee
cloth to keep her in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if
she was panicked and whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did
not even try heaving-to or running before it. The video shows mainsail
and jigger sheeted in tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And
the rudder failure? What kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder
with no stops or inadequate stops if any such existed. Any real blue
water sailor knows how to look after his rudder and steering gear. You
don't allow your boat to be blown backwards using a drogue from the bows
or forced head to the seas with mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes
a beating and gets slammed this way and that. And what about adequate
pumps? The holes in the transom caused by the rudder's banging were well
above the LWL so they only took water when it splashed up or the transom
pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily handled the ingress.
And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam? Any real blue water
boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in case of a breached
hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would
have put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any
real sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to
avoid would have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where
shelter from strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays.
Then, with a good weather window he could have taken two or three days on
a nice safe and comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his
arrogant and boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a
failed attempt to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this
if one is a real blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil
rigs that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000
feet of water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the
depth there is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL
PLATFORMS but one in that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde
Boudreaux, a high tech, semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored
in 8000 feet of water drilling test wells into the Perdido formation
32,000 feet below the surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC
Boudreaux were just about nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples
of how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is
going to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can
talk because I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the
time I would have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I
refused to let discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I
really feel I have the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of
Mother Nature that's needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to
offer. Combine these with a seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced
crew and you won't end up as a bad example like the Captain of the
ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some Rube posted a link to a supposed Red Cloud but it was not the real
thing. Last I heard the Captain of the "Red Cloud" himself stated she was
'gone.'

Wilbur Hubbard
(grounded in reality)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Marty" wrote in message
...
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Maybe the dude doesn't have a closed mind like you do? Maybe he knows the
truth when he reads the truth? Maybe he's not a whiner and complainer like
you. Maybe he doesn't read newsgroups as an excuse engage in censorship?

--
Gregory Hall


Wilbur Hubbard wrote the following great post:

I had hoped to put from my mind the sad saga of the sailing vessel "Red
Cloud" and her unqualified crew but a recent posting has brought memories of
that pathetic spectacle back to the fore.

Now that passions have cooled and supporters of an inept, incompetent
braggart of a failure have had time to re-examine their support of such a
buffoonish attempt at blue water voyaging perhaps they will listen to
reason. And here follows reason.

Reason number 1: Red Cloud's captain was too ARROGANT AND BOASTFUL. He did
not take seriously that which he should have taken seriously. He
demonstrated that he lacked the experience and know-how to prepare and sail
a vessel offshore and succeed at it.

Reason number 2: Like many here in these pretend news groups, Red Cloud's
captain DID NOT HEED THE ADVICE of those non-pretenders in this group who
offered him pearls of wisdom based on experience. No! He thought he knew it
all and, instead of a well-planned and timely voyage, his was an
ill-conceived, ill planned and ill executed plan that resulted in failure.
It really never had any chance to succeed.

Reason number 3: He boasted about the comfort of a pilot house motor sailor
while knowledgeable sailors advised him about THE DANGERS OF THOSE BIG FLAT
WINDOWS and vulnerable structure that houses them and how easily they would
be stove in by any serious seas - seas that one should expect at some time
during a blue water voyage. His claims of comfort turned out to be pitiful
in light of how uncomfortable he must have been while he was hanging above
his foundering vessel in a rescue sling catching a few last glimpses of his
unnecessarily abandoned vessel going to her watery grave.

Reason number 4: HIS CREW WAS A JOKE. His lubberly, top-heavy woman with the
manicured nails. His lubberly brother. And a poor unfortunate pooch. Did he
ever consider a qualified, sea hardened crew that would not have panicked,
faked injuries and whined when some small adversity struck?

Reason number 5: He was WARNED ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT in a Gulf cold front but
he decided he could either avoid them or cope with them. Turns out he was
unable to do either. This is very unfortunate because, though they are very
uncomfortable such a front is short-lived and really nothing that should
cause an abandonment.

Reason number 6: SHIP MANAGEMENT WAS TOTALLY LACKING. Any real blue water
captain would have done things differently. The minor sprained ankle should
have been administered to with first aid. Pain pills should have been given
and the girl should have been placed in a berth with a lee cloth to keep her
in place. Maybe a sedative should have been given if she was panicked and
whining and crying. And, the captain apparently did not even try heaving-to
or running before it. The video shows mainsail and jigger sheeted in
tightly. That's no way to heave to in a ketch. And the rudder failure? What
kind of an idiot would go to sea with a rudder with no stops or inadequate
stops if any such existed. Any real blue water sailor knows how to look
after his rudder and steering gear. You don't allow your boat to be blown
backwards using a drogue from the bows or forced head to the seas with
mizzen sail in place so the rudder takes a beating and gets slammed this way
and that. And what about adequate pumps? The holes in the transom caused by
the rudder's banging were well above the LWL so they only took water when it
splashed up or the transom pitched down. A real bilge pump could have easily
handled the ingress. And what about collision bulkheads or flotation foam?
Any real blue water boat has one or two of these forward and aft just in
case of a breached hull in those areas.

Reason number 7: Choice of a route was appalling. It was done like a
motorboat even though the motor was inoperable. Any real sailor would have
put in at Key West under sail and got his auxiliary operational. Any real
sailor, knowing cold fronts were to be expected and difficult to avoid would
have then sailed north along the west coast of Florida where shelter from
strong fronts is readily available in the inlets and bays. Then, with a good
weather window he could have taken two or three days on a nice safe and
comfortable reach across the Gulf to Texas. Instead his arrogant and
boastful nature caused him to take the motorboat route in a failed attempt
to bully his way to his destination. One NEVER does this if one is a real
blue water sailor. It's folly!

Reason number 8: The captain is a liar or confused or engaging in a cover
up! He claimed there was imminent danger of drifting into the many oil rigs
that were in his lee. Strange how he also claimed he was in 4,000 feet of
water. He says he was 200 miles south of Galveston, TX. and the depth there
is more like 8,000 feet. Sorry, but there are NO OIL PLATFORMS but one in
that depth and area. That would be the Noble Clyde Boudreaux, a high tech,
semi-submersible oil drilling platform anchored in 8000 feet of water
drilling test wells into the Perdido formation 32,000 feet below the
surface. The chances of drifting down onto the NC Boudreaux were just about
nil.

I can think of a couple more things but the above serve as good examples of
how one MUST BE HUMBLE, COMPETENT, EXPERIENCED, AND STALWART if one is going
to succeed at blue water sailing. Many try - few succeed. I can talk because
I have succeeded more times than I wish to count. Many's the time I would
have liked to throw in the towel and yell for rescue but I refused to let
discomfort and unwarranted fears get the better of me. I really feel I have
the luck, the guts, the know-how and the respect of Mother Nature that's
needed to cope with whatever the deep sea has to offer. Combine these with a
seaworthy vessel and hardened and experienced crew and you won't end up as a
bad example like the Captain of the ill-fated and prematurely abandoned "RED
CLOUD."


Wilbur Hubbard
(the original straight-talk express!)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Apr 8, 7:57 pm, OzOne wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:
Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:

Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?

Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.




A lot of things around Marty are closed....good restaurants (to him),
his own mind, the legs of any woman withing 20 yards of him.
Farty Marty.....A big WIND is a'blowin'!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the
same
post twice?


WOW!!! You must be exhausted!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:25:37 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty


Obviously Wilder doing for a re-post of his message under yet another
nom de plume.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Apr 8, 9:34 pm, Marty wrote:
OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.





Now THERE'S some pressure!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:34:42 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

I'd suggest you look back thru the archives.
I some misgivings regarding the actions leading to the loss of Red
Cloud.
It appeared to me as it has to Neal and others that there were some
serious omissions and dubious decisions prior to and during the
voyage.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Spare us.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:37:37 -0700, "Tom Dacon"
wrote:


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...

Spare us.



From discussion you will learn!




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"PrefersOffshore" wrote in message
...
My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.



I think Joe would be the first to admit that he did a couple of things wrong
and would do them differently or have different equipment or had made other
adjustments or additions to his boat and crew.

Some of the reasons for the outcome, although I can't know directly, might
have been lack of funds for getting the boat truly ready, pushing the
sailing window (which I believe Joe admitted to), and not having a planned
"out" in case of the worst case. All of that said, few have unlimited
resources, unlimited time, and omniscient knowledge. At some point, you have
to just go, and as the comedian says, get 'er done.

My guess is that very few of the people who've posted here have truly been
offshore anything like what Joe and company did.

My longest non-stop for example was a little over 1000 NM (downhill from SF
to Cabo). The weather was picture perfect after the first couple of days of
slogging into the westerly to 30+ knot wind and 10-12 ft. seas for 100 NM or
so. When we turned left, we were on a broad reach, starboard for just about
the entire voyage, with gentle but huge swells, minimal waves, and 15 or so
air. The only rain we encountered was the last night for about an hour.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Spare us.



Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
ctanews.com...

Spare us.




Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Neal (Wilbur), what boat are you sailing these days? Or are you sailing
at all? Pictures?

Jim

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:19:21 GMT, JimC wrote:



Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
. octanews.com...

Spare us.




Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Neal (Wilbur), what boat are you sailing these days? Or are you sailing
at all? Pictures?

Jim

My dear Sir. The famed Wilbur is not so crass as to post the details
of his earth shaking cruising exploits for all and sundry to peruse.

My goodness, one does not discuss one's own exploits, no matter how
exemplary they may be. The chaps would view that in much the same
light as an individual so declasse' as to pass the Port to the right.

No, the famed cruising expert and Internet habitue restricts the
details of his celebrated voyaging which are solely for his own
edification and certainly not for the commonality to salivate over.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


My dear Sir. The famed Wilbur is not so crass as to post the details
of his earth shaking cruising exploits for all and sundry to peruse.

My goodness, one does not discuss one's own exploits, no matter how
exemplary they may be. The chaps would view that in much the same
light as an individual so declasse' as to pass the Port to the right.

No, the famed cruising expert and Internet habitue restricts the
details of his celebrated voyaging which are solely for his own
edification and certainly not for the commonality to salivate over.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


Now THAT is class...

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Apr 9, 9:19 pm, JimC wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
news:kZmdnW8-pbtstmHanZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@isomediainc...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
ctanews.com...

Spare us.

Jeez what a closed minded nitwit you are, Tom! One must wonder why you
bother reading discussion groups.

So, instead of whining, next time spare yourself yourself. It's not my job
to do it. And, what's with the "us." How dare you presume to speak for
everybody else?

Now, bugger off ******!

Wilbur Hubbard

Neal (Wilbur), what boat are you sailing these days? Or are you sailing
at all? Pictures?

Jim



Of course he's not sailing. He's so pathetic that he takes photos of
other boats and claims they're his. He's a sad sockpuppet who hides
because he must. He doesn't sail at all. If he did he'd post a pic or
two and troll with that.



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:17:54 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote

Now THAT is class...


Gee, three of my cruising exploits are being published as articles in
"Points East" http://www.pointseast.com this year.

That must make me a world class porker among the Port drinkers of the
world:)


Assuming that "pointeast" is a Maine publication one does not worry
about passing the Port to the left (Port). One worries about grabbing
the beer before Lew Boudearu gets it.

And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:17:54 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:


"cavelamb himself" wrote

Now THAT is class...


Gee, three of my cruising exploits are being published as articles in
"Points East" http://www.pointseast.com this year.

That must make me a world class porker among the Port drinkers of the
world:)



Assuming that "pointeast" is a Maine publication one does not worry
about passing the Port to the left (Port). One worries about grabbing
the beer before Lew Boudearu gets it.

And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


I "kinda" did that once in the Gulf - shrimpin'
3 Good ol' boys in a 14 foot jon boat with a case of beer.

We had quite a haul for the Jumbo that weekend.
And all God's cute little slimy creatures in the bottom of the boat.

Closest I've ever come to being green gilled sea sick!

Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)

Shorts and scrambled eggs, breakfast of Champions!

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:13:14 -0400, Martin Baxter
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)

Shorts and scrambled eggs, breakfast of Champions!

Cheers
Marty


Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"PrefersOffshore" wrote in message
...
My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Probably not!

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

I would guess the answer to that would be affirmative on the helm but no on
the jacklines.


Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

Ignorance or a stuck halyard? And no, not prior to the rescue at least. One
can consult the videos. It looks like it was reefed and the mainsail removed
when the vessel was abandoned. Why not get the sails right prior to
abandoning the vessel?


40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

You can see from the videos of the rescue that the seas were lucky if they
were 20 feet tall. Most were more like fifteen but they WERE short and
steep. Check out the video he
http://www.khou.com/news/local/galve...e.6a6a4f6.html
And note how in the text of the report it says after the rescue the
helicopter landed and refueled on a nearby oil platform. (That would be the
Noble Clyde Boudreaux which is the only one in that area.) It also said that
the helicopter stayed there for an hour until the wind died. Hmmmmm!

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

I advised the captain many times on the newsgroups that running before it
was the best option given the inadequacies of a big square pilot house and
large flat windows. There was about a week of searoom to do so. He didn't
bother listening. He came up with some lame excuse that the whole area to
his lee was dotted with oil rigs. A lie. The Noble Clyde Boudreaux was the
ONLY oil rig that far offshore. Given the NW wind slowly veering to the
North there was nothing in his lee but unobstructed deep water. Cold fronts
in the Gulf are imminently predicatable. The wind begins to blow from the
west and strengthens. Then it quickly veers to the NW and rapidly increases
withing the space of minutes with the passing of the frontal boundary
usually accompanied by a line of threatening black clouds and some rain
squals. Then it blows hard for maybe 12-18 hours with clearing skys and
dropping temperatures.while slowly veering to the North and then NE while
diminishing in intensity. During the worst of it one should heave-to if one
has a suitable yacht or run before it to effective lengthen the wavelength
so as not to take a pounding by trying to take them head on as was the case
in the video. It's as if they didn't even know the basics of storm sailing.
As if they never even read a book about it let alone had any experience at
it. Something is very fishy about the entire episode.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

You are so correct.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

Dubious!



Wilbur Hubbard

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:13:14 -0400, Martin Baxter
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)
Shorts and scrambled eggs, breakfast of Champions!

Cheers
Marty


Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.

Had friends on Grand Manan Island when I was young. "Honest Officer,
those little fellers was killed by the big lads in the pots, once we had
em in the boat it seemed like it'd just be polluting to throw them back..."

No deer there, but the island I currently live on has plenty, and a
number of people with apparently impaired night vision; why else would
they have those giant lights on the cab roof?

Cheers
Marty

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Apr 11, 9:34�am, Martin Baxter wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:13:14 -0400, Martin Baxter
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)
Shorts and scrambled eggs, breakfast of Champions!

Cheers
Marty

Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.

Had friends on Grand Manan Island when I was young. "Honest Officer,
those little fellers was killed by the big lads in the pots, once we had
em in the boat it seemed like it'd just be polluting to throw them back..."

No deer there, but the island I currently live on has plenty, and a
number of people with apparently impaired night vision; why else would
they have those giant lights on the cab roof?

Cheers
Marty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Knew this was a lie when I read "Had friends..."



The Good Captain
35s5
NY

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT), "Capt. Rob"
wrote:

On Apr 11, 9:34?am, Martin Baxter wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:13:14 -0400, Martin Baxter
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
And, short lobsters are all right if you dig the hole yourself and go
out to the island on an actual lobster boat with a tub of bait in the
cockpit :-)
Shorts and scrambled eggs, breakfast of Champions!

Cheers
Marty

Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.

Had friends on Grand Manan Island when I was young. "Honest Officer,
those little fellers was killed by the big lads in the pots, once we had
em in the boat it seemed like it'd just be polluting to throw them back..."

No deer there, but the island I currently live on has plenty, and a
number of people with apparently impaired night vision; why else would
they have those giant lights on the cab roof?

Cheers
Marty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Knew this was a lie when I read "Had friends..."



The Good Captain
35s5
NY

In the some sixty years that I've been messing around in boats I have
never heard a professional seaman refer to himself as "the good
captain" so I assume that you are some sort of ignoramus that knows
nothing and rates right along side such other sterling examples of
stupidity as the Good Captain Neil and Wilbur (the guy that can't
spell his name correctly) for competency.

So, good but good captain and into the hopper you go.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


In the some sixty years that I've been messing around in boats I have
never heard a professional seaman refer to himself as "the good
captain" so I assume that you are some sort of ignoramus that knows
nothing and rates right along side such other sterling examples of
stupidity as the Good Captain Neil and Wilbur (the guy that can't
spell his name correctly) for competency.

I sailed into harbor in W Fla for the night and was addressed as
'Captain' by the dockie. I was single-handing but I still squirm with
embarrassment as I don't consider myself to be experienced enough to
earn that title.

And I don't know when/if I'll be comfortable with it either.

However, someone has to be in charge (me).. Hmm, a quandary!

--
Molesworth

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Molesworth" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


In the some sixty years that I've been messing around in boats I have
never heard a professional seaman refer to himself as "the good
captain" so I assume that you are some sort of ignoramus that knows
nothing and rates right along side such other sterling examples of
stupidity as the Good Captain Neil and Wilbur (the guy that can't
spell his name correctly) for competency.

I sailed into harbor in W Fla for the night and was addressed as
'Captain' by the dockie. I was single-handing but I still squirm with
embarrassment as I don't consider myself to be experienced enough to
earn that title.

And I don't know when/if I'll be comfortable with it either.

However, someone has to be in charge (me).. Hmm, a quandary!

--
Molesworth


Very accurate assessment of them both. In a couple of VHF communications
with the CG, one time they called me captain, but all the rest called me
skipper. I felt a little odd answering to the former. The LT in charge of
the Mexican Navy used the term capeetan, which I assumed was the same thing.
LOL


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

"Molesworth" wrote in message
...
I sailed into harbor in W Fla for the night and was addressed as
'Captain' by the dockie. I was single-handing but I still squirm with
embarrassment as I don't consider myself to be experienced enough to
earn that title.

And I don't know when/if I'll be comfortable with it either.

However, someone has to be in charge (me).. Hmm, a quandary!

No quandary really.
You were undoubtedly the 'Skipper' of your vessel.
The word 'Captain' is greatly misused especially on this ng and you
certainly cannot be a captain if you do not have a crew..

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:40:41 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote this crap:

Very accurate assessment of them both. In a couple of VHF communications
with the CG, one time they called me captain, but all the rest called me
skipper. I felt a little odd answering to the former. The LT in charge of
the Mexican Navy used the term capeetan, which I assumed was the same thing.
LOL


Oooh! wow! They called you, "captain," over the radio. I'm so
unimpressed. They called me, "Captain Horvath," in the army, and many
brave men saluted me. I was a real captain.

I was known throughout the land as, "Captain Horvath, Defender of
Freedom."

And I have the paperwork to prove it.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

OzOne wrote:
I'd suggest you look back thru the archives.
I some misgivings regarding the actions leading to the loss of Red
Cloud.

I bet Joe did too. However he was under a lot of time pressure to
complete the voyage.

To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld: "You can't go to sea with the boat you
*wish* you had, you can only go to sea with the boat you do have."

It appeared to me as it has to Neal and others that there were some
serious omissions and dubious decisions prior to and during the
voyage.


"Neal" is constantly crying doom, and insisting that everybody else is
an ignorant incompetent etc etc.... just because Joe lost Red Cloud
doesn't even make him right once... it seems to me that taking a look
at "Neal"s success record would be a better way of evaluating his
"expertise."

DSK

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.


No, absolutely not. Never.
Although I did have a car with one headlight bent upward a little,
years ago... somehow passed the state inspection anyway ;)

DSK

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:28:41 -0500, Molesworth
wrote:

In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


In the some sixty years that I've been messing around in boats I have
never heard a professional seaman refer to himself as "the good
captain" so I assume that you are some sort of ignoramus that knows
nothing and rates right along side such other sterling examples of
stupidity as the Good Captain Neil and Wilbur (the guy that can't
spell his name correctly) for competency.

I sailed into harbor in W Fla for the night and was addressed as
'Captain' by the dockie. I was single-handing but I still squirm with
embarrassment as I don't consider myself to be experienced enough to
earn that title.

And I don't know when/if I'll be comfortable with it either.

However, someone has to be in charge (me).. Hmm, a quandary!

It is common courtesy to address the master of a vessel as "Captain"
but one does not introduce one's self as Captain unless one is a
serving military officer in which case it is proper to announce one's
rank, primarily so that others know how to address you.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'RED CLOUD'
 

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:34:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Goodness, and here I thought that all RBC folks were law abiding good
guys. I mention "short lobsters" and it seems like everybody knows
what I'm talking about. Next thing I'm going to mention "jack
lighting" to see if there are any deer hunters in the crowd.


No, absolutely not. Never.
Although I did have a car with one headlight bent upward a little,
years ago... somehow passed the state inspection anyway ;)

DSK
Next you'll be telling me about how the kid taped that stupid 5 cell
flashlight under the barrel on the 30-30 so he could shoot rats after
dark...... Right!


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

'Captain' (was) Lessons to be learned from the wreck of the 'REDCLOUD'
 

Bloody Horvath wrote:
.... They called me, "Captain Horvath," in the army, and many
brave men saluted me. I was a real captain.


You may have been a real Captain, but still outranked by a Navy
Lieutenant.

If I were to claim a title, I'd be just as happy to be the senior
petty officer on board. That leaves no doubt as to who is really in
charge in any emergency, yet I can still loaf most of the time.

former BT1(SW) Doug King