On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:46:17 +0000, JimB wrote:



"mr.b" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:13:35 +0000, JimB wrote:

Perhaps the system is self limiting . . . .

how else would a finite system operate? the problem for us is that
there are too few smart enough to recognize that and far too many who
are too stupid to recognize it


'stupid' is a little pejorative. How about 'ill educated'?

fine...I lost my zen-mind for a moment...but there do seem to be a large
number of seemingly "educated" people who refuse to see both the forest
and the trees if I can put it that way...I suppose a definition of
"educated" or"smart" would assist


'The end of the world is nigh' - untrue.


ah but not untrue if you happen to subscribe to the Millenial flavour of
Christianity...and these true believers want it to happen!!?!


'change is inevitable' - true


there's the rub...our environment changes because it does, and because of
what we do...but from my read of history, human nature has not changed and
our actions as a species do not indicate to me any coming change...and for
us, I think for humans, the self-limiting nature of our finite ecosystem
will find its expression in our self-induced extinction at worst
and extirpation at best...sadly because we are -to use your words- too
"ill educated" to survive ourselves.

mr.b wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:46:17 +0000, JimB wrote:


"mr.b" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:13:35 +0000, JimB wrote:

Perhaps the system is self limiting . . . .
how else would a finite system operate? the problem for us is that
there are too few smart enough to recognize that and far too many who
are too stupid to recognize it


'stupid' is a little pejorative. How about 'ill educated'?

fine...I lost my zen-mind for a moment...but there do seem to be a large
number of seemingly "educated" people who refuse to see both the forest
and the trees if I can put it that way...I suppose a definition of
"educated" or"smart" would assist

'The end of the world is nigh' - untrue.


ah but not untrue if you happen to subscribe to the Millenial flavour of
Christianity...and these true believers want it to happen!!?!

'change is inevitable' - true


there's the rub...our environment changes because it does, and because of
what we do...but from my read of history, human nature has not changed and
our actions as a species do not indicate to me any coming change...and for
us, I think for humans, the self-limiting nature of our finite ecosystem
will find its expression in our self-induced extinction at worst
and extirpation at best...sadly because we are -to use your words- too
"ill educated" to survive ourselves.

Our "finite ecosystem" is virtually irrelevant, not to mention false,
because mankind's creativity is infinite, and fortunately (no matter how
many people are blind to it) mankind will continue to create new ideas
to make our lives and our environment better and better for everyone.

Stephen

On Nov 13, 9:19 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

I can't decide if the Black River polution problem is completely
cleared, or if it has caused some - mutation???

1000 pound sturgeon!


Hi
As I mentined before here, my sweedish step dad commercial fished off
the OR-WA coast in the late 50s up to 1980. When I was a about 10 it
was not unusuall for him to bring home green sturgon that half would
hang out the bed of a pickup: 500 lbs was about right, We never though
anything diffrent. Just ate lots of sturgon and traded it.

But the big ones were on display at the Bonneville Fish hatchery. But
my uncles worked on the Columbia river when the Dalles Damn was built
1940s Thats where they say the really big river sturgon. When some
rock was blasted for the Damn 16'+ fish were floating to the top.

Kinda like killing a readwood. takes a long time to grow one.

So have a seen change in my life, yup

WHat have I learned....... Repubicans have no respect for the past.
They are like spoild children who only want immediate gratification
and do not care, respect, or regard the past or futre. They call it
other things.... but actions speak lounder than their words. Just look
at the results of their actins and yo will see a self serving spoild
brat.
Bob

"hpeer" wrote in message
m...

1. Not "stupid" or "ill educated" but "self centered" and/or "short
sighted"

Yes. Nice.

"The end of the world AS WE KNOW IT is nigh"

and always will be . . .
------------------------------------------

1. What it the correct number of people to have a maximum human
experience?

2. Why is it that this question is never debated?

Frightening, isn't it? Implications of population control, denial of the
rights to re-produce, dreadfully non PC points of view. It will, of course,
evolve naturally, so perhaps it doesn't need to be debated. But the changes
involved will (and do already) terrify many whose lives will be changed.

'Stick your finger in the dyke, young man, we can't have a another flood . .
..'

--
JimB
Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com
Compares Cruise areas of Europe

Our "finite ecosystem" is virtually irrelevant, not to mention false,
because mankind's creativity is infinite, and fortunately (no matter how
many people are blind to it) mankind will continue to create new ideas
to make our lives and our environment better and better for everyone.

Stephen

Steve,

I wasn't going to respond, I suspect that our world views are just far
to divergent to engage in a meaningful dialog. However, serendipitously
(being something of a Geek myself I love it when spell check lets me use
really big words) I came across the following. I offer this not to
insult or diminish you, but just because it was in my face. BTW I
freely admit to being a "doomer."

Panglossian Disorder: "The neurotic tendency toward extreme optimism in
the face of likely cultural and planetary collapse."

I have spoken elsewhere about the label "Doomer," and I've come to
believe that this frame is outdated. Instead, I would like to suggest
that we must stop asking ourselves, given the lateness of the hour, why
there are those pessimistic about the future, and begin asking, instead,
why there are those still blindly and enthusiastically optimistic about
it. We can easily see why those who might be gloomy about the future
could feel hopeless and take the path of inactivity. On the other hand,
this same fear of disaster can motivate constructive action in an
attempt to mitigate the effects. Not so, however, for those who see no
NEED to take action, because they live in the best of all possible
worlds. Indeed, I might argue that it is the very blind hopefulness and
inaction of the masses that leads many of my readers to assume a more
hopeless posture toward world events.

Full text:
http://www.energybulletin.net/37091.html

hpeer wrote:


Our "finite ecosystem" is virtually irrelevant, not to mention false,
because mankind's creativity is infinite, and fortunately (no matter
how many people are blind to it) mankind will continue to create new
ideas to make our lives and our environment better and better for
everyone.

Stephen

Steve,

I wasn't going to respond, I suspect that our world views are just far
to divergent to engage in a meaningful dialog. However, serendipitously
(being something of a Geek myself I love it when spell check lets me use
really big words) I came across the following. I offer this not to
insult or diminish you, but just because it was in my face. BTW I
freely admit to being a "doomer."

Panglossian Disorder: "The neurotic tendency toward extreme optimism in
the face of likely cultural and planetary collapse."

I have spoken elsewhere about the label "Doomer," and I've come to
believe that this frame is outdated. Instead, I would like to suggest
that we must stop asking ourselves, given the lateness of the hour, why
there are those pessimistic about the future, and begin asking, instead,
why there are those still blindly and enthusiastically optimistic about
it. We can easily see why those who might be gloomy about the future
could feel hopeless and take the path of inactivity. On the other hand,
this same fear of disaster can motivate constructive action in an
attempt to mitigate the effects. Not so, however, for those who see no
NEED to take action, because they live in the best of all possible
worlds. Indeed, I might argue that it is the very blind hopefulness and
inaction of the masses that leads many of my readers to assume a more
hopeless posture toward world events.

Full text:
http://www.energybulletin.net/37091.html

There is a very simple and clear reason for being optimistic about the
future. Throughout the history of mankind we have continuously been
coming up with new ideas to better the well being of mankind. There are
less innocent people being killed, tortured, abused, starved, etc, etc
than ever before thanks to better morality and better technology than
ever before. This improvement has continued through all of recorded
history and shows no sign of stopping now.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what condition makes you blind to this?

Stephen

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:14:38 -0800, a "Stephen Trapani" wrote this:

Our "finite ecosystem" is virtually irrelevant, not to mention false,
because mankind's creativity is infinite, and fortunately (no matter
how many people are blind to it) mankind will continue to create new
ideas to make our lives and our environment better and better for
everyone.

Stephen

and then apparently wrote this:

There is a very simple and clear reason for being optimistic about the
future. Throughout the history of mankind we have continuously been coming
up with new ideas to better the well being of mankind. There are less
innocent people being killed, tortured, abused, starved, etc, etc than
ever before thanks to better morality and better technology than ever
before. This improvement has continued through all of recorded history and
shows no sign of stopping now.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what condition makes you blind to this?

yikes! Stephen!! where are you getting those drugs??? share!!

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:52:35 -0500, mr.b wrote
(in article ):

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:14:38 -0800, a "Stephen Trapani" wrote this:

Our "finite ecosystem" is virtually irrelevant, not to mention false,
because mankind's creativity is infinite, and fortunately (no matter
how many people are blind to it) mankind will continue to create new
ideas to make our lives and our environment better and better for
everyone.

Stephen

and then apparently wrote this:

There is a very simple and clear reason for being optimistic about the
future. Throughout the history of mankind we have continuously been coming
up with new ideas to better the well being of mankind. There are less
innocent people being killed, tortured, abused, starved, etc, etc than
ever before thanks to better morality and better technology than ever
before. This improvement has continued through all of recorded history and
shows no sign of stopping now.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what condition makes you blind to this?

yikes! Stephen!! where are you getting those drugs??? share!!


Face it... We are like the fruit fly in the jar experiment. We will breed
into overpopulation... Deplete all our resources and die in our own
excrement. That my friends is the good news. Just trying to be a little
optimistic

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass