dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

Taught a class this last weekend through one of the local schools. Saturday,
wind was light, so we practiced a lot of motoring skills aboard a newer
Hunter 32. Typically, the second day is devoted to sailing skills, such as
COBs and the usual tacking/jibing/points of sail, etc.

The wind picked up a bit in mid-afternoon, and we got some good COB
practice. Ate lunch under sail, and since anchoring knowledge is part of the
class, I decided to get us over to the Cone Rock area for a bit of practice.
Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying. What a jerk. Fortunately, we
were all holding on at this point, so no one was hurt or thrown off the
boat, which could easily have been the case.

Ok, so we proceeded to sail, then got to a good spot to turn on the engine
and drop the sails. Did this, motored about 200 meters, when the cooling
water hi temp alarm came on. I was able to kill the engine within 20 seconds
or so. A couple of the students were still up by the mast, so the main came
back up without a hitch. As soon as they scrambled back to the cockpit, I
popped the furling line for the jib, it came out, and we got moving again.

We did a visual inspection of the engine... double checked that the raw
water intake was open, oil level, fresh water level, feel for excessive
heat, sniff test for something burning, belts are on and not slipping. I had
someone turn the engine back on and I put my hand over the raw water exhaust
(it's under the transom, and you can be fooled by air bubbling vs. water
exiting). Water was definitely coming out, the water was luke warm at most,
but the alarm was on. Also, I noticed oil on the absorbant pad underneath
the engine... not a lot, but there was none in the morning... something
happened. Well, we were sailing, so it didn't matter right now, and I shut
down the engine after about a minute. Even though the water was only warm at
most, I was starting to see steam coming out of the exhaust. I started
thinking it might be a blown head gasket, one reason was it seemed overly
rough at low idle.

Since we were headed back to base anyway at this point, I figured I'd give
them a ring (cell phone had great reception) and let the base manager know
what was up and ask if he had any suggestions. He had none beyond what I'd
already done, so I told him we'd be back in about an hour at most, and I
would call him again if I thought we couldn't make it back to either the
slip or an end tie near the base. I think he appreciated me not hailing them
on the VHF... dirty laundry in public and all that.

So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept going!
So, I turned on the engine again, figuring I could use it for 30 seconds
without damage, since it had been off for over 30 minutes. We got around
him, barely. I thanked him for getting out of our way, and I think he
thought I was serious. Jeez... Then, I turned off the engine.

Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard
stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us
having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side
and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was
going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on
going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying.

Am convinced that for the most part, to qualify to receive the keys to
a power vessel, you must certify you only have 2 brain cells, of which
at least one must be dead.

Lew

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard
stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us
having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side
and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was
going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on
going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying.

Am convinced that for the most part, to qualify to receive the keys to
a power vessel, you must certify you only have 2 brain cells, of which
at least one must be dead.


Qualifications to own a big SeaRay are a lobotomy.

Leanne

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Leanne" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard
stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us
having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side
and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was
going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on
going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying.

Am convinced that for the most part, to qualify to receive the keys to
a power vessel, you must certify you only have 2 brain cells, of which
at least one must be dead.


Qualifications to own a big SeaRay are a lobotomy.

Leanne


Heh... I don't get it I guess... do they really expect me to get out of the
way?


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Capt. JG" wrote:
....
Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying.

A video camera is the best answer for such.



We did a visual inspection of the engine... double checked that the raw
water intake was open, oil level, fresh water level, feel for excessive
heat, sniff test for something burning, belts are on and not slipping. I had
someone turn the engine back on and I put my hand over the raw water exhaust
(it's under the transom, and you can be fooled by air bubbling vs. water
exiting). Water was definitely coming out, the water was luke warm at most,
but the alarm was on. Also, I noticed oil on the absorbant pad underneath
the engine... not a lot, but there was none in the morning... something
happened. Well, we were sailing, so it didn't matter right now, and I shut
down the engine after about a minute. Even though the water was only warm at
most, I was starting to see steam coming out of the exhaust. I started
thinking it might be a blown head gasket, one reason was it seemed overly
rough at low idle.


Could be a lot of things. Corrosion in the exhaust/cooling water mixer
can make steam, and can also cause enough backpressure to overheat the
engine. Partly busted raw water impellor could also make steam &
overheat. It's not your engine, right?




So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept going!

Not only a moron, but a militant moron. The same kind who rides his
bicycle in traffic and dares cars to hit him.

It's a shame we don't currently have a legal way to get such people
out of the gene pool.

We've had a couple of issues with kayakers, generally they have no
clue about draft or maneuverability constraints. In New York, we had a
trio of kayakers dart across the channel in front of us (it seemed to
me that they had waited for the opportunity to do so) but we were
already going slow, had spotted them well ahead, and let them go by.
About an hour later there was a pretty bad squall and the police &
rescue boats went tearing out into the river.... seems you-know-who
had gotten lost, disoriented, capsized repeatedly, and finally become
separated from their boats. They could only think to use their cell
phones to dial 911.
..

Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.


Sounds like a GREAT sailing lesson: if you know the skills & watch out
for idiots, you can still have a good time!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Capt. JG" wrote:
....
Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard
stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us having
to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side and
bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was
going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on going,
and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying.

A video camera is the best answer for such.

I've got one on my cell phone, but I just wasn't fast enough...

We did a visual inspection of the engine... double checked that the raw
water intake was open, oil level, fresh water level, feel for excessive
heat, sniff test for something burning, belts are on and not slipping. I
had
someone turn the engine back on and I put my hand over the raw water
exhaust
(it's under the transom, and you can be fooled by air bubbling vs. water
exiting). Water was definitely coming out, the water was luke warm at
most,
but the alarm was on. Also, I noticed oil on the absorbant pad underneath
the engine... not a lot, but there was none in the morning... something
happened. Well, we were sailing, so it didn't matter right now, and I
shut
down the engine after about a minute. Even though the water was only warm
at
most, I was starting to see steam coming out of the exhaust. I started
thinking it might be a blown head gasket, one reason was it seemed overly
rough at low idle.


Could be a lot of things. Corrosion in the exhaust/cooling water mixer
can make steam, and can also cause enough backpressure to overheat the
engine. Partly busted raw water impellor could also make steam &
overheat. It's not your engine, right?

I wouldn't think it was corrosion, since it's a brand new engine... very
clean. I like the busted impellor theory. Damn right... not mine.

We've had a couple of issues with kayakers, generally they have no
clue about draft or maneuverability constraints. In New York, we had a
trio of kayakers dart across the channel in front of us (it seemed to
me that they had waited for the opportunity to do so) but we were
already going slow, had spotted them well ahead, and let them go by.
About an hour later there was a pretty bad squall and the police &
rescue boats went tearing out into the river.... seems you-know-who
had gotten lost, disoriented, capsized repeatedly, and finally become
separated from their boats. They could only think to use their cell
phones to dial 911.

Sheesh... usually they are smart enough to stay out of the way, but every
once in a while. I always tell the students to try and hit them on their
beam... they'll sink faster.


Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.


Sounds like a GREAT sailing lesson: if you know the skills & watch out
for idiots, you can still have a good time!

They loved it. The main issue was at the end going down the fairway... would
we have enough to get to the end where the slip was... but we did. It
reinforced the notion of an "auxiliary" and primary means of propulsion.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:44:50 -0800, "Capt. JG"
said:

Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.

So what was the cause of the overheating? I had an issue with overheating
this summer. Turned out the raw water intake was plugged up part way by
barnacles. Disconnected the intake hose at the engine and ran a bent coat
wire down the opening a few times. Problem solved.


I'm still waiting to hear... I'm sure they'll let me know mid-week when they
get to it.

I had an interesting situation on my boat with one of the bilge pumps not
pumping even though it was running. I got to my boat after the class to find
a bit of water in the bilge, enough that it should have triggered the pump.
Foolishly, I had switched off the bilge pump at the panel, and thought, oh
well, not a big deal. But, when I switched it to auto, it ran and nothing
got removed. Hmmm... pulled the pump and it was pushing water through the
exhaust side. Gave the tube that would normally connect to the exhaust side
a puff, yech, but it's only bilge water right, and it was clogged. Hmmm....
turns out the check valve (bronze) was not opening in the out direction. One
push of a screwdriver fixed that, but I replaced both valves after both
pumps.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Timothy Tannebaum" wrote in message
...

bs deleted

Still stalking me I see. No problem... PLONK.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Timothy Tannebaum" wrote in message
...

So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the
channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out
of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked
me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're
going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept
going!
So, I turned on the engine again, figuring I could use it for 30 seconds
without damage, since it had been off for over 30 minutes. We got around
him, barely. I thanked him for getting out of our way, and I think he
thought I was serious. Jeez... Then, I turned off the engine.


No dayshapes displayed for limited maneuverability!

No lights either!

Negligence!

Incompetence!

Ball-Diamond-Ball!!!!!

I bet the kayakers had the right of way too!


He should have run up the day shapes.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Robert Musgine" wrote in message
...

"Timothy Tannebaum" wrote in message
...

So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the
channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly
narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally
unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to
head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out
of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked
me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're
going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept
going!
So, I turned on the engine again, figuring I could use it for 30 seconds
without damage, since it had been off for over 30 minutes. We got around
him, barely. I thanked him for getting out of our way, and I think he
thought I was serious. Jeez... Then, I turned off the engine.


No dayshapes displayed for limited maneuverability!

No lights either!

Negligence!

Incompetence!

Ball-Diamond-Ball!!!!!

I bet the kayakers had the right of way too!


He should have run up the day shapes.

It's hard for him to tell one shape from another. He's written that when he
looks at stuff it morphs into reptile-looking objects. It's from large
overdoses of LSD he admitted he's taken. It's negligence on the Coast Guards
behalf to issue a professional license to an admitted drug abuser.

I say when he finally ends up injuring or killing somebody their relatives
can sue him for everything he owns. Then they can go after the Coast Guard
and have a very good chance of getting a large settlement from them. The
Coast Guard's ultimately responsible for licensing unqualified people.

Greg

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:56:45 -0500, Gregory Hall wrote:


I say when he finally ends up injuring or killing somebody their
relatives can sue him for everything he owns. Then they can go after the
Coast Guard and have a very good chance of getting a large settlement
from them. The Coast Guard's ultimately responsible for licensing
unqualified people.

Greg

Uh huh.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f071.htm

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:56:45 -0500, Gregory Hall wrote:


I say when he finally ends up injuring or killing somebody their
relatives can sue him for everything he owns. Then they can go after the
Coast Guard and have a very good chance of getting a large settlement
from them. The Coast Guard's ultimately responsible for licensing
unqualified people.

Greg

Uh huh.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f071.htm

None of that bilge has got anything to do with wrongful death or injury
suits.

Greg

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:23:53 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote this crap:

Heh... I don't get it I guess... do they really expect me to get out of the
way?


If they don't get out of your way, you can always hit them with your
purse.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

JG,

I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way and I don't think that you had an
emergency.

Dave M.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:08:34 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Am convinced that for the most part, to qualify to receive the keys to
a power vessel, you must certify you only have 2 brain cells, of which
at least one must be dead.

Now wait just a minute here.

Capt JG was in a 32 ft, seaworthy, ocean going sailboat, in open
water. Why should he be concerned about a 2 or 3 ft wake? Let's get
real. A wake is a wave by any other name. If you are worried about
small waves in a 32 ft sailboat better to stay home. Power boats
leave wakes (waves). It's a fact and has nothing to do with brain
cells, moral fiber or any other personal characteristic.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

David L. Martel wrote:

I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way

How do you figure that?

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Nov 6, 11:56 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Robert Musgine" wrote

He should have run up the day shapes.

No, the boat was under 12 meters.

--
Roger Long

Well, I don't think that's right. If he was restricted in his ability
to maneuver then he has to put up his day shapes. Size doesn't enter
into it. Of course, I don't think he was RIBM as the rules have it.
The question of who had the right of way is hard in this case as human
powered boats aren't mentioned in COLREGS. The implication based on
their lights is that they have the rights of a sail boat, but I don't
know if that's been tested...

-- Tom.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:08:34 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Am convinced that for the most part, to qualify to receive the keys to
a power vessel, you must certify you only have 2 brain cells, of which
at least one must be dead.

Now wait just a minute here.

Capt JG was in a 32 ft, seaworthy, ocean going sailboat, in open
water. Why should he be concerned about a 2 or 3 ft wake? Let's get
real. A wake is a wave by any other name. If you are worried about
small waves in a 32 ft sailboat better to stay home. Power boats
leave wakes (waves). It's a fact and has nothing to do with brain
cells, moral fiber or any other personal characteristic.


Who said it was seaworthy? :-) Certainly it isn't ocean capable. At least I
wouldn't take it there. It was more like we experienced a 3-4 foot wake in
close proximity to the source, with people on deck, and in otherwise calm
conditions with very little wind. The boater came within 10 feet of us going
over 10kts. You're saying this is appropriate behavior???

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:56:45 -0500, Gregory Hall wrote:


I say when he finally ends up injuring or killing somebody their
relatives can sue him for everything he owns. Then they can go after the
Coast Guard and have a very good chance of getting a large settlement
from them. The Coast Guard's ultimately responsible for licensing
unqualified people.

Greg

Uh huh.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f071.htm


He's a stalker... forget em.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
...
JG,

I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way and I don't think that you had an
emergency.

Dave M.



Good question... couldn't luff without going aground. They crossed in front
of me without regard to my ability to maneauver. Not sure what you mean
about an emergency, since it wasn't. I started/engaged the engine as I said
to avoid hitting them.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Wayne.B" wrote
Why should he be concerned about a 2 or 3 ft wake? Let's get
real. A wake is a wave by any other name.

Y'know, I'll bet that's exactly what that guy just upriver from me with the
SeaPlow 390 thinks.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 6, 11:56 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Robert Musgine" wrote

He should have run up the day shapes.

No, the boat was under 12 meters.

--
Roger Long

Well, I don't think that's right. If he was restricted in his ability
to maneuver then he has to put up his day shapes. Size doesn't enter
into it. Of course, I don't think he was RIBM as the rules have it.
The question of who had the right of way is hard in this case as human
powered boats aren't mentioned in COLREGS. The implication based on
their lights is that they have the rights of a sail boat, but I don't
know if that's been tested...

-- Tom.



I don't think that many rights are available if you cut off another boat,
which was what was about to happen, which in fact did happen in a limited
way. In the small amount of time at this point in the channel, there was no
opportunity to display day shapes. I've sailed there many times before with
no problems. Prior to this particular spot, we were not restricted at all,
and I'm not even sure we were restricted in the practical sense, since we
did maneauver. I think the real issue is the behavior of the kayaker,
assuming that he was the only one on the water, not looking port or
starboard.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On 2007-11-06 14:44:50 -0500, "Capt. JG" said:

Ok, so we proceeded to sail, then got to a good spot to turn on the engine
and drop the sails. Did this, motored about 200 meters, when the cooling
water hi temp alarm came on.

THAT concerns me! The kayaker was just bucking for a Darwin award.

We've found that even with the fresh water closed off, we have about 5
minutes' run-time at cruise power (about 2200 rpm) before the high-temp
alarm sounds -- quite a bit further than 200 meters. We used that
reserve once about a decade ago, so I know it exists.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2007110620504143658-jerelull@maccom...
On 2007-11-06 14:44:50 -0500, "Capt. JG" said:

Ok, so we proceeded to sail, then got to a good spot to turn on the
engine
and drop the sails. Did this, motored about 200 meters, when the cooling
water hi temp alarm came on.

THAT concerns me! The kayaker was just bucking for a Darwin award.

After thinking about it between then and now and recalling the expression of
"determination" on his face, I'm now under the impression that he just
didn't know how to control his kayak (which would still qualify for the
award, given the general location). Some people think because the sun is
shining and there's no wind, there are no other hazards... like other boats,
currents, etc.


We've found that even with the fresh water closed off, we have about 5
minutes' run-time at cruise power (about 2200 rpm) before the high-temp
alarm sounds -- quite a bit further than 200 meters. We used that reserve
once about a decade ago, so I know it exists.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


I know you're right... we did run the engine from time to time during the
trek back, but at lower rpm and for shorter times..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:08:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

The boater came within 10 feet of us going
over 10kts. You're saying this is appropriate behavior???

Distances can be deceptive sometimes. I'm betting it was more than
that but I understand your point.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 6, 11:56 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Robert Musgine" wrote

He should have run up the day shapes.

No, the boat was under 12 meters.

--
Roger Long

Well, I don't think that's right. If he was restricted in his ability
to maneuver then he has to put up his day shapes. Size doesn't enter
into it. Of course, I don't think he was RIBM as the rules have it.
The question of who had the right of way is hard in this case as human
powered boats aren't mentioned in COLREGS. The implication based on
their lights is that they have the rights of a sail boat, but I don't
know if that's been tested...

-- Tom.



I don't think that many rights are available if you cut off another boat,
which was what was about to happen, which in fact did happen in a limited
way. In the small amount of time at this point in the channel, there was
no opportunity to display day shapes. I've sailed there many times before
with no problems. Prior to this particular spot, we were not restricted at
all, and I'm not even sure we were restricted in the practical sense,
since we did maneauver. I think the real issue is the behavior of the
kayaker, assuming that he was the only one on the water, not looking port
or starboard.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




Didn't you know the engine was inoperable 1/2 hour before entering the
channel? Was that not enough time to prepare?

Didn't you cut off some much larger boat last year and when he beared down
upon you it was his fault? Now the situation is reversed and it is their
fault?

You claimed to be inoperable yet managed to start the engine?

You travelled at such a speed to almost run over someone in a row boat?

Why didn't you sound the horn hundreds of yards from the kayakers?

Why didn't you have proper lookout?

Why do you not hold yourself responsible in any way?

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
David L. Martel wrote:

I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way

How do you figure that?


http://www.auxetrain.org/navhelp.html

"Man-powered boats (e.g. canoes, rowboats, etc.) have the right of way over
sailboats, powerboats, and seaplanes.."

The kayakers had the right of way.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:08:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

The boater came within 10 feet of us going
over 10kts. You're saying this is appropriate behavior???

Distances can be deceptive sometimes. I'm betting it was more than
that but I understand your point.


Wait until one of these clowns rolls you beam ends and see happy you are.
They know what they are doing when they will not even turn around on the
bridge while I was sounding shorts blasts of the air horns.

Leanne

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:08:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

The boater came within 10 feet of us going
over 10kts. You're saying this is appropriate behavior???

Distances can be deceptive sometimes. I'm betting it was more than
that but I understand your point.


They can, and I'll restate to say 15 feet, but literally about that.. about
1/2 boat length, maybe less.. It was pretty scary for the two people by the
mast.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Robert Musgine" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 6, 11:56 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Robert Musgine" wrote

He should have run up the day shapes.

No, the boat was under 12 meters.

--
Roger Long

Well, I don't think that's right. If he was restricted in his ability
to maneuver then he has to put up his day shapes. Size doesn't enter
into it. Of course, I don't think he was RIBM as the rules have it.
The question of who had the right of way is hard in this case as human
powered boats aren't mentioned in COLREGS. The implication based on
their lights is that they have the rights of a sail boat, but I don't
know if that's been tested...

-- Tom.



I don't think that many rights are available if you cut off another boat,
which was what was about to happen, which in fact did happen in a limited
way. In the small amount of time at this point in the channel, there was
no opportunity to display day shapes. I've sailed there many times before
with no problems. Prior to this particular spot, we were not restricted
at all, and I'm not even sure we were restricted in the practical sense,
since we did maneauver. I think the real issue is the behavior of the
kayaker, assuming that he was the only one on the water, not looking port
or starboard.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




Didn't you know the engine was inoperable 1/2 hour before entering the
channel? Was that not enough time to prepare?

Wasn't inoperable. Just not something I wanted to do, which is what I said
if you had read the post.

Didn't you cut off some much larger boat last year and when he beared down
upon you it was his fault? Now the situation is reversed and it is their
fault..

Huh? Not sure what you're talking about...

You claimed to be inoperable yet managed to start the engine?

Never claimed that. I said engine trouble.

You travelled at such a speed to almost run over someone in a row boat?

Yeah, about 1/2 knot.

Why didn't you sound the horn hundreds of yards from the kayakers?

100s of yards? He came out of nowhere practically in front of us. We were on
the edge of the channel.

Why didn't you have proper lookout?

Duhh... otherwise I would have run him over.

Why do you not hold yourself responsible in any way?

Why are you stalking me?

I'm not going to respond to a sockpuppet beyond this post...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
David L. Martel wrote:

I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way

How do you figure that?


Because he's a stalking coward?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

Robert Musgine wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
David L. Martel wrote:
I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your sail.
Sounds like they had the right of way
How do you figure that?


http://www.auxetrain.org/navhelp.html

"Man-powered boats (e.g. canoes, rowboats, etc.) have the right of way over
sailboats, powerboats, and seaplanes.."

The kayakers had the right of way.


Now that's really classic - a CG Aux instruction page that blatantly
misrepresents the rules. Sorry Robert, there is no rule for ColReg or
Inland waters that even mentions "man powered boats" other than to say
what lights are appropriate. The CG Aux person is just making that up;
there is no such rule. It would be different if they had been in State
waters, instead of Inland waters, but that was not the case here.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"jeff" wrote in message
...
Robert Musgine wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
David L. Martel wrote:
I don't quite follow the kayak story. Why couldn't you luff your
sail. Sounds like they had the right of way
How do you figure that?


http://www.auxetrain.org/navhelp.html

"Man-powered boats (e.g. canoes, rowboats, etc.) have the right of way
over sailboats, powerboats, and seaplanes.."

The kayakers had the right of way.

Now that's really classic - a CG Aux instruction page that blatantly
misrepresents the rules. Sorry Robert, there is no rule for ColReg or
Inland waters that even mentions "man powered boats" other than to say
what lights are appropriate. The CG Aux person is just making that up;
there is no such rule. It would be different if they had been in State
waters, instead of Inland waters, but that was not the case here.


I'm continually amazed by the lack of knowledge that some in the Auxiliary
display.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:08:57 -0500, "Leanne" wrote:

Wait until one of these clowns rolls you beam ends and see happy you are.
They know what they are doing when they will not even turn around on the
bridge while I was sounding shorts blasts of the air horns.

Some people roll me, and some get rolled by me. It's part of boating
and being on the water. I am constantly amazed at the hue and cry
raised by large seaworthy sailboats when they encounter a wake. It is
not written in stone anywhere that the water will always be flat.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

No, seriosly, I think you are misunderestimating the distances and
thus complaining about non-issues.

Here is the test:

If another boater cuts you off close enough to fling some old fish
heads on his bridge, you have the right to do so. Just do it. Fish
heads, anything biodegradable, in case you miss. You will soon see if
they really are that close, it is hard to aim fish heads well over
more than 50 feet, I would guess. Ask me how I know.

Also, if you really were going just half a knot, the kayaker could
have moved out of your way easily. They are capable of accelerating to
about five knots in not time. And trust me, he would have, if you had
been really close. He just didn't think you were too close.

Btw., having no engine does not put you in 'unable to maneuver '
status. It just makes you a sailboat, col-reg-wise, doesn't it?

So, what had happened with the engine? We are all curious to hear.

Captain Jack Sparrow




On Nov 6, 11:44 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Taught a class this last weekend through one of the local schools. Saturday,
wind was light, so we practiced a lot of motoring skills aboard a newer
Hunter 32. Typically, the second day is devoted to sailing skills, such as
COBs and the usual tacking/jibing/points of sail, etc.

The wind picked up a bit in mid-afternoon, and we got some good COB
practice. Ate lunch under sail, and since anchoring knowledge is part of the
class, I decided to get us over to the Cone Rock area for a bit of practice.
Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us having to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side and bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on going, and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying. What a jerk. Fortunately, we
were all holding on at this point, so no one was hurt or thrown off the
boat, which could easily have been the case.

Ok, so we proceeded to sail, then got to a good spot to turn on the engine
and drop the sails. Did this, motored about 200 meters, when the cooling
water hi temp alarm came on. I was able to kill the engine within 20 seconds
or so. A couple of the students were still up by the mast, so the main came
back up without a hitch. As soon as they scrambled back to the cockpit, I
popped the furling line for the jib, it came out, and we got moving again.

We did a visual inspection of the engine... double checked that the raw
water intake was open, oil level, fresh water level, feel for excessive
heat, sniff test for something burning, belts are on and not slipping. I had
someone turn the engine back on and I put my hand over the raw water exhaust
(it's under the transom, and you can be fooled by air bubbling vs. water
exiting). Water was definitely coming out, the water was luke warm at most,
but the alarm was on. Also, I noticed oil on the absorbant pad underneath
the engine... not a lot, but there was none in the morning... something
happened. Well, we were sailing, so it didn't matter right now, and I shut
down the engine after about a minute. Even though the water was only warm at
most, I was starting to see steam coming out of the exhaust. I started
thinking it might be a blown head gasket, one reason was it seemed overly
rough at low idle.

Since we were headed back to base anyway at this point, I figured I'd give
them a ring (cell phone had great reception) and let the base manager know
what was up and ask if he had any suggestions. He had none beyond what I'd
already done, so I told him we'd be back in about an hour at most, and I
would call him again if I thought we couldn't make it back to either the
slip or an end tie near the base. I think he appreciated me not hailing them
on the VHF... dirty laundry in public and all that.

So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept going!
So, I turned on the engine again, figuring I could use it for 30 seconds
without damage, since it had been off for over 30 minutes. We got around
him, barely. I thanked him for getting out of our way, and I think he
thought I was serious. Jeez... Then, I turned off the engine.

Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.

--
"j" ganz

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Nov 6, 3:21 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... I don't think that many rights are available if you cut off another boat,
which was what was about to happen, which in fact did happen in a limited
way. In the small amount of time at this point in the channel, there was no
opportunity to display day shapes....

Probably not, and I didn't mean to criticize your actions. It sounds
to me like you managed to get through a difficult situation with no
people injured and no property harmed. Everything else is details. I
was just making some points about the COLREGS.

-- Tom.

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:08:57 -0500, "Leanne" wrote:

Wait until one of these clowns rolls you beam ends and see happy you are.
They know what they are doing when they will not even turn around on the
bridge while I was sounding shorts blasts of the air horns.

Some people roll me, and some get rolled by me. It's part of boating
and being on the water. I am constantly amazed at the hue and cry
raised by large seaworthy sailboats when they encounter a wake. It is
not written in stone anywhere that the water will always be flat.


You're certainly correct, and most of the time a simple wake from a boat is
no big deal. However, boaters are responsible for their wakes, so if they
cause damage or injury, they would be responsible for it (even if they don't
know that).

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

No, seriosly, I think you are misunderestimating the distances and
thus complaining about non-issues.

No seriously, I didn't. I have a fair amount of experience in the North Bay
of SF especially, and wakes are not a big deal.


Here is the test:

If another boater cuts you off close enough to fling some old fish
heads on his bridge, you have the right to do so. Just do it. Fish
heads, anything biodegradable, in case you miss. You will soon see if
they really are that close, it is hard to aim fish heads well over
more than 50 feet, I would guess. Ask me how I know.

Gross. No thanks.

Also, if you really were going just half a knot, the kayaker could
have moved out of your way easily. They are capable of accelerating to
about five knots in not time. And trust me, he would have, if you had
been really close. He just didn't think you were too close.

You're right in that he didn't think, but we were too close. As I said
previously, it was my impression after thinking about it that he couldn't
control his kayak. I think he was a total novice.

Btw., having no engine does not put you in 'unable to maneuver '
status. It just makes you a sailboat, col-reg-wise, doesn't it?

I did have an engine, and I told him that we were having engine trouble. So,
I'm not sure what you're asking.

So, what had happened with the engine? We are all curious to hear.

I'm waiting to hear...

Captain Jack Sparrow

Right.


On Nov 6, 11:44 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Taught a class this last weekend through one of the local schools.
Saturday,
wind was light, so we practiced a lot of motoring skills aboard a newer
Hunter 32. Typically, the second day is devoted to sailing skills, such
as
COBs and the usual tacking/jibing/points of sail, etc.

The wind picked up a bit in mid-afternoon, and we got some good COB
practice. Ate lunch under sail, and since anchoring knowledge is part of
the
class, I decided to get us over to the Cone Rock area for a bit of
practice.
Sailing there, a big cabin cruiser came up on us from the starboard
stern...
must have been going 10+ kts, with a huge wake.

At first I thought he was going to cut us off to the point of us having
to
take evasive action, but he weaved around enough to clear our side and
bow.
The whole time we're waving and gesturing to slow down, since it was
going
to be close and the wake was going to be huge. He kept right on going,
and
as he got abeam, had the middle finger flying. What a jerk. Fortunately,
we
were all holding on at this point, so no one was hurt or thrown off the
boat, which could easily have been the case.

Ok, so we proceeded to sail, then got to a good spot to turn on the
engine
and drop the sails. Did this, motored about 200 meters, when the cooling
water hi temp alarm came on. I was able to kill the engine within 20
seconds
or so. A couple of the students were still up by the mast, so the main
came
back up without a hitch. As soon as they scrambled back to the cockpit, I
popped the furling line for the jib, it came out, and we got moving
again.

We did a visual inspection of the engine... double checked that the raw
water intake was open, oil level, fresh water level, feel for excessive
heat, sniff test for something burning, belts are on and not slipping. I
had
someone turn the engine back on and I put my hand over the raw water
exhaust
(it's under the transom, and you can be fooled by air bubbling vs. water
exiting). Water was definitely coming out, the water was luke warm at
most,
but the alarm was on. Also, I noticed oil on the absorbant pad underneath
the engine... not a lot, but there was none in the morning... something
happened. Well, we were sailing, so it didn't matter right now, and I
shut
down the engine after about a minute. Even though the water was only warm
at
most, I was starting to see steam coming out of the exhaust. I started
thinking it might be a blown head gasket, one reason was it seemed overly
rough at low idle.

Since we were headed back to base anyway at this point, I figured I'd
give
them a ring (cell phone had great reception) and let the base manager
know
what was up and ask if he had any suggestions. He had none beyond what
I'd
already done, so I told him we'd be back in about an hour at most, and I
would call him again if I thought we couldn't make it back to either the
slip or an end tie near the base. I think he appreciated me not hailing
them
on the VHF... dirty laundry in public and all that.

So, we're sailing down the Sausalito channel. Toward the end of the
channel,
where we need to go, it gets rather narrow, and it's quite easy to run
aground if you get outside the markers. As we get to a particularly
narrow
spot (still under sail, which was good practice for the students), three
kayakers come out of a marina and are slowly paddling ahead of us on our
port side just outside the channel. I can see that they're totally
unaware
of us and edging closer and closer to the channel, obviously going to
head
across it.

When I got within earshot, I called over to them, saying, please stay out
of
the channel... we're having engine trouble and can't maneauver. One asked
me
where he should be, and I said, anywhere except in front of me is fine.
Another one stopped paddling, waiting for us to go by. The third guy kept
going! Slowly! Unbelievable. So, I said, Sir, if you keep going, we're
going
to run you over. Please get out of the channel. He said ok, but kept
going!
So, I turned on the engine again, figuring I could use it for 30 seconds
without damage, since it had been off for over 30 minutes. We got around
him, barely. I thanked him for getting out of our way, and I think he
thought I was serious. Jeez... Then, I turned off the engine.

Well, the final leg was sailing down the fairway, very light wind at this
point... under 2kts, but we made a beautiful docking, and all ended well.

--
"j" ganz





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 6, 3:21 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... I don't think that many rights are available if you cut off another
boat,
which was what was about to happen, which in fact did happen in a limited
way. In the small amount of time at this point in the channel, there was
no
opportunity to display day shapes....

Probably not, and I didn't mean to criticize your actions. It sounds
to me like you managed to get through a difficult situation with no
people injured and no property harmed. Everything else is details. I
was just making some points about the COLREGS.

-- Tom.



Certainly... I didn't think that at all. (And, you're welcome to
criticize... heh) I think your comments were fine. I'm just glad this
happened during the day. This particular spot can be nightmarish at night.
I've followed the red right returning only to discover the red light turned
green... stupid traffic light.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

dead engines, kayaks, and powerboaters
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:08:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote this crap:


Capt JG was in a 32 ft, seaworthy, ocean going sailboat, in open


Who said it was seaworthy? :-) Certainly it isn't ocean capable.


Are you nuts? A 32 ft. Hunter is certainly ocean capable.

I used to take my 25 ft. Hunter out in storm warnings, where you would
**** your pants. I was once out in 60 mph winds. The boat loved it,
even if the crew didn't.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.