On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:34:19 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/12/2007 8:55 AM:

If my wife would let me sell the house I might consider the PDQ, and
could then look down on the Mac myself.

Why would you "look down" on any boat? Almost all boats, the Mac
included, have their place. Contrary to Ed's delusions, I don't hate
the Mac. All I've done is point out that some of the outrageous
claims don't hold water.

My apologies. No offense intended. "Look down" was a thoughtless
and wrong expression.
Let's just say that if I had a quarter million boat budget a Mac 26
"would not be considered" - for any purpose.
I would simply buy one sailboat that sailed well for sailing and a
boat like the Parker for gunkholing, and have plenty of cash to spare.
Or maybe a low draft cat, which could actually suit both goals.
My impression is that a knee-deep (=24") draft cat with suitable 3
week livability for 2 either doesn't exist or cost too much for my
budget, but I may be wrong about that, as I haven't looked hard.
I do think cats make the best cruisers and generally sail very well,
so I'm in no way a traditional sailing purist.
BTW, using that Mac which turtled as an argument against the Mac is
akin to claiming F/P Tobago 35 cruising cats flip easily because of
that recent Gulf incident. Apparently that cat also flipped in '01.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rs-3534-3.html
These rare owner-induced incidents put me off a boat no more than
knowing that a 42' mast shouldn't be sailed under high voltage lines
hanging 40' above the water.

The bottom line for the Mac is that it has two distinguishing
features: It has a power boat inspired hull that permits it to make
use of the large engine, and it has maximized the interior space of a
street legal boat. However these features don't come without a cost.
Its virtually the slowest sailer you could buy. As a powerboat it
also has limitations - it isn't really that fast, and certainly
wouldn't be much fun in a real sea.

So if the two big features are truly big features for you, then maybe
the Mac is a good choice. I would strongly consider it if I wanted to
drive around the country and explore the inland lakes. But I think
you've already said that the large engine and the trailering are not
top priority for you, so I'm not sure why you're in love with the Mac.

Nice analysis. Might be more accurate to say I'm in love with Mac
threads rather than Macs, since I'm always learning something and
getting my mind changed in some respect in those threads, and
comparable boats unknown to me are recommended.
In order, the shallow draft, cabin, turnkey condition and price are
what I like most about the available Macs. Light air and pointing
performance are big negatives. I've concluded I won't know what
compromises I'll make until I sail a number of different boats in the
very waters where I intend to sail.

However, it has never occurred to me to get a new Marshall. These
boat are quite well made, and the $35K that you would pay for a Mac
would get you a rather high quality example. In fact of the 5
currently listed on YachtWorld, all are under 30K. These are
extremely solid hulls, simple rigs, strong diesels. The systems are
minimal - no gensets or A/C - so needed repairs would be minimal.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a used Marshall actually has fewer
problems than a new Mac.

As for space, the styles are quite different. Certainly the cockpit
on the Marshall is far more comfortable than the Mac, but it doesn't
have the two double bunks. Also, I'd expect the Marshall to be faster.

I looked and see your point here. They are very nice looking boats,
all around and inside. Here's one "review."
http://www.sailnet.com/boatchk/showp...p?product=1138
Though I won't go ocean sailing, I can't exclude the possibility of
getting caught in 6-8' waves in the Gulf. I'm not sure the Marshall
22 would be safer in that than the Mac 26.

Jeff, though I appreciate your advice, I'm thinking more in line with
Capt'n Neal's website boat buying advice regarding price.
Trouble is the Capt'n is a deep keel, blue water, bristol fashion
sailor.

You really drank the Kool-aid on that one!!!

Coffee. Lots of it.

But Neal is right that your first boat should be simple and cheap.
This will be a learning experience, both learning how to care for a
boat, and learning what kind of boat you want.

And I just want a fairly comfortable gunkholer.

Is there some reason why you need a new boat?

No, but I don't buy fixer-uppers. I like turnkey shipshape.
I can handle buying old cars because I concentrate on certain models I
know well. I *never* encounter unanticipated expenses.
I know diddly about boat construction and hidden problems, except that
many owners find out about them too late. If I buy used, I'll go in
with my eyes open.

--Vic

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:18:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Though I won't go ocean sailing, I can't exclude the possibility of
getting caught in 6-8' waves in the Gulf. I'm not sure the Marshall
22 would be safer in that than the Mac 26.

A windy day sailing in the Gulf is comparable to being on the ocean.
The only real difference is that the swells are smaller but it is not
the swells that bother you.

There are *no* boats in the 20 ft range suitable for 6 to 8 ft wind
waves in my opinion. The boat will probably survive if it doesn't
capsize but the people will be in rough shape after a short time.
Even 40 footers get tiresome upwind in 6 to 8 ft waves unless they
are very heavily built.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:03:24 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:18:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Though I won't go ocean sailing, I can't exclude the possibility of
getting caught in 6-8' waves in the Gulf. I'm not sure the Marshall
22 would be safer in that than the Mac 26.

A windy day sailing in the Gulf is comparable to being on the ocean.
The only real difference is that the swells are smaller but it is not
the swells that bother you.

There are *no* boats in the 20 ft range suitable for 6 to 8 ft wind
waves in my opinion. The boat will probably survive if it doesn't
capsize but the people will be in rough shape after a short time.
Even 40 footers get tiresome upwind in 6 to 8 ft waves unless they
are very heavily built.

Good observations, and I'll keep them in mind. I said "caught"
because I want no part of seas that rough. But I don't count on
weather reports to be 100% accurate, so it could happen.

--Vic

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:33:30 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Good observations, and I'll keep them in mind. I said "caught"
because I want no part of seas that rough. But I don't count on
weather reports to be 100% accurate, so it could happen.

6 to 8 ft waves are routine conditions offshore on open water.

* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/13/2007 9:18 AM:
Let's just say that if I had a quarter million boat budget a Mac 26
"would not be considered" - for any purpose.

When I was younger I used to think, "If I had the money, I'd do ..."
whatever seemed neat at the time. As the money became less of an
issue, I realized it was harder to know what I really wanted. As I've
said, the concept of driving around the country with a Mac doesn't
sound that bad. (But I'd probably do it with an RV and a kayak.)

I would simply buy one sailboat that sailed well for sailing and a
boat like the Parker for gunkholing, and have plenty of cash to spare.
Or maybe a low draft cat, which could actually suit both goals.
My impression is that a knee-deep (=24") draft cat with suitable 3
week livability for 2 either doesn't exist or cost too much for my
budget, but I may be wrong about that, as I haven't looked hard.

There are no cats that I would consider that can be had for under
$50K. Around $80K is entry level for a used Gemini or vintage Prout.
Of course, these are more than short vacation boats. The problem is
that the concept of cruising cats doesn't scale down very well, and
the 30 footers are the equivalent of a 40 foot monohull.

The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan
on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can
be under 30K.

I do think cats make the best cruisers and generally sail very well,
so I'm in no way a traditional sailing purist.
BTW, using that Mac which turtled as an argument against the Mac is
akin to claiming F/P Tobago 35 cruising cats flip easily because of
that recent Gulf incident. Apparently that cat also flipped in '01.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rs-3534-3.html
These rare owner-induced incidents put me off a boat no more than
knowing that a 42' mast shouldn't be sailed under high voltage lines
hanging 40' above the water.

Owner-induced would is a good term for it. BTW, I'm not the one who
brought up the case of the Mac July 4 tragedy - I didn't even raise
safety as an issue until Ed tried to claim that the Mac was not to blame.

The difference is that everyone knows that a cat has the potential to
flip if the conditions get bad enough and you don't reduce sail.
Generally they are designed to handle 40 knots with full sail, but the
Tobago is aggressive with the sail area (about 30% more than mine with
less weight) so extra care would be needed. I don't know the full
story of this episode, but I gather they carried full sail in a squall
a ways offshore.

The Mac episode was rather different. Someone had borrowed the boat
on July 4th and took out some friends (with a few kids) to watch the
fireworks. Yes, there were a few people above the recommended limit,
and yes there was alcohol, but this was probably the case for half the
boats that left the dock that night across the country. The weather
was perfect: no wind, no waves. They pulled the anchor and apparently
the driver goosed the throttle by mistake. The boat tipped, someone
probably grabbed a stay, and it rolled over. I might expect this
behavior from a racing dinghy, or even a centerboard daysailer, but
not a 26 foot "cruising" boat. It is the totally unexpected nature of
this accident that sets it apart.


....
Is there some reason why you need a new boat?

No, but I don't buy fixer-uppers. I like turnkey shipshape.
I can handle buying old cars because I concentrate on certain models I
know well. I *never* encounter unanticipated expenses.

Don't fool yourself that new boats are "trouble free." I thought that
buying new from a quality builder would give me a "grace period" but
that was not the case. The engine gave me a lot of trouble for the
first year, including a 3 weeks unscheduled delay, fortunately in
Charleston SC, and paid for by Yanmar. The fuel lines almost had us
stranded 30 miles from shore on our first voyage. Much of the
plumbing was done by an apprentice and had to be gone over,inch by
inch. In fact, while most of the standard features worked fine, the
custom items, like the Lavac head and the big fridge were a mess and
have taken years to sort out. As a whole, the boat got "better" for a
few years, and then age started catching up. So my experience is that
"turnkey" is really achieved on a 2-3 year old boat, whereas a new
boat may have as many problems as a 5 year old. Of course, with a
trailer boat you have the possibility of sending it back to the dealer
for re-grooving.

(BTW, PDQ understands these new-boat issues. They have a couple of
crews that drive around to the new boat owners during the Spring
delivery season fixing as many of the new boat problems as possible.)


I know diddly about boat construction and hidden problems, except that
many owners find out about them too late. If I buy used, I'll go in
with my eyes open.

Survey! Don't buy without a survey! And never ever use a surveyor
recommended by the broker. (The best thing you can hear from your
broker when you're selling is "they're using a surveyor we recommended.")

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote:


The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan
on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can
be under 30K.

Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after
looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I
have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and
actually drafts less.

The Mac episode was rather different. Someone had borrowed the boat
on July 4th and took out some friends (with a few kids) to watch the
fireworks. Yes, there were a few people above the recommended limit,
and yes there was alcohol, but this was probably the case for half the
boats that left the dock that night across the country. The weather
was perfect: no wind, no waves. They pulled the anchor and apparently
the driver goosed the throttle by mistake. The boat tipped, someone
probably grabbed a stay, and it rolled over. I might expect this
behavior from a racing dinghy, or even a centerboard daysailer, but
not a 26 foot "cruising" boat. It is the totally unexpected nature of
this accident that sets it apart.

Well, my take is plain operator stupidity, and AFAIK it's a unique
incident. There were *11* people and a dog on the boat.
Three little girls, two of whom tragically drowned - that really
****es me off - and the dog were in the cabin.
The operator was in the cockpit. The other *7* adults, weighing who
knows how much, were on the bow. Duh.
*Nothing* is idiot-proof.
I was driving a big rented pontoon boat on a family fishing trip one
time and the damn thing almost tipped over when 4 heavyweights all
went to a forward corner. Totally unexpected.
The current was strong, and of course nobody was wearing a PFD.
It was scary, and if somebody drowned it would have been my fault for
not knowing the boat's limitations, and not instructing the passengers
on the rules.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote:


The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan
on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can
be under 30K.

Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after
looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I
have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and
actually drafts less.

It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a
little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who
wants to sail a multi will go tri.

Wilbur Hubbard

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 6/14/2007 3:09 PM:
Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after
looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I
have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and
actually drafts less.

It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a
little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who
wants to sail a multi will go tri.

Wilbur Hubbard


You know even less about boats than Neal did.

Its pretty well known that tris are more prone to flipping than cats.
There are are number of reasons, but one major difference is that a
tri will fly a hull, which allows the wind to push up underneath. The
opposite hull (or ama) then is getting pushed under. Even though the
tri is wider than a cat, since only the center hull and one ama
actually provides buoyancy at one time, the the effective beam is
less. This situation can go critical when going over a wave, and the
windward ama lifts up, while the leeward one dips.

This is why the extreme racing tris sometimes have half the fleet
capsize in a race. The Corsairs have had their share of incidents,
but the vast majority have been during racing, there have been very
few incidents with boats setup for cruising.

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote:


The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan
on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can
be under 30K.

Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after
looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I
have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and
actually drafts less.


It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a
little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who
wants to sail a multi will go tri.

Wilbur Hubbard


Np, any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go with a Wharrum Cat.

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
k.net...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote:


The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather
spartan
on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they
can
be under 30K.

Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after
looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips
I
have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and
actually drafts less.


It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris
are a little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane
person who wants to sail a multi will go tri.

Wilbur Hubbard


Np, any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go with a Wharrum
Cat.


Yah, right! Would that be James Wharrum? Bwahahahahahhahahahahahah!

I think a "Wharram" cat would be better. And there's some clowns here
who claim I don't know anything about boats?

Wilbur Hubbard