"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

It's not a supercar at all. But it is probably the best handling car you
can buy for under $100K. The Exige I have on order is a sport
version--read: lighter and suspended more for the track. It will
probably
see as much track mileage as road time. I don't have time for an SCCA
campaign, but I can do the occasional track day.

Max


MAx, I think we have different definitions for Supercar. Handling to
me is the biggest element of what makes a car "great." Back in the day
my friends and I would laugh at straight line only metal like Grand
Nationals and Vettes.

First let me state categorically that I don't like Corvettes. Their FRP
bodies are a joke, and they rattle miserably after only a few road miles.
That said, it's obvious you haven't driven one recently. They are anything
but "straight-line only metal." They handle remarkably well, and it takes
very little suspension and frame work to prodify one for competitive SCCA
racing. Once set up properly they are a bitch to beat. Only the Dodge
Viper can compete in that price range. And of course with over 500 bhp, the
Corvette is anything but slow or sluggish. In a year or two the Corvette ZO6
will have over 600 bhp.

Either they couldn't handle or were very nervous
rides on any real twisty that wasn't perfectly smooth.

Since the early 90s, the Vettes have been superb handling vehicles. Are you
referring to the older models? Some early Vettes (Stingrays, etc.) weren't
terribly competent on winding pavement.

No matter what
power a Mustang had, that fixed rear would always be the achilles
heal.

Naught but a muscle car. Not great handlers without one hell of a lot of
suspension modification.

A car like my Speed6 would murder a lot of faster cars with it's
refinded handling and quarter miles under 14 seconds is plenty of
power for the twisty runs...more than needed perhaps.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is indeed a very competent automobile, both on the track
and on pavement, but I believe you've greatly overstated its abilties. It
is nowhere in the handling league with Vipers, Corvettes, and such. And my
forthcoming Exige will outhandle everything we've mentioned so far. The
demo Elise I drove--not a sport version, incidentally--simply blew me away.
I had to own one.

These days there
are many cars pulling stock numbers that used to pretty rare.

Very true.

So for
me: if the car handles great and it can do a 1/4 mile in 5 seconds,
that's pretty "super." If it can do 165 MPH then it's a done deal.

It's governed to do quite a bit less than that. Remove the governor and you
can kiss your warranty goodbye.

Now
there are cars that do 200 MPH and sub 4 second runs and quarters in
under 11 seconds. But they are usually not daily drivers. For example,
we could not use an STI as a daily driver with it's rally ready setup.

Doubtful if anyone could, but properly set up for Euro.rally, it would cost
more than all the cars we've mentioned so far, COMBINED.

In that regard I would agree that an M5 is fantastic....fast AND
liveable day to day.
The Elise is the best handling car off the shelf so even without crazy
power it's certainly deserving of a supercar ranking. You also have to
give it up to the Elise because of the Toyota powerplant will be Miata
reliable. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

The Elise (roadster) and Exige (coupe) are not supercars. Handling may be
on par with supercars, but they lack the raw horsepower to be supercars. An
Exige with, say, 400 bhp, would indeed be a supercar. With the Toyota mill
they aren't slow, but they are far from supercar fast.

One thing we can agree on...it's a fantastic time to be in love with
cars. Even my buddies BMW 330XI (that he bought used for a small sum
of 20K) is an amazingly refined car with plenty of fast fun on tap. As
you can probably tell I'm an AWD convert, which is why I chose the
Mazdaspeed6. I also live in a hilly windy area that can get snowy, so
I'd had to show some practicallity!

AWD is nice, especially in crap weather. It even does well on the track, if
engineered properly. My BMW 330 Ci (coupe, not convertible) obviously
doesn't have it, but I think it's a fair trade to have RWD in a BMW as
opposed to AWD. I have an additional set of rims with winter
ultra-performance tires in addition to the M rims with ultra-performance
tires for summer use. Both get me around just fine, and I prefer the RWD
for twisty roads.

Supercars: Porsche GT3 or McLaren, Ferraris, Aston Martin Vantage, Saleen
S7, Ford GT, Dodge Viper, Corvette ZO6, stuff like that.

Max

First let me state categorically that I don't like Corvettes. Their
FRP
bodies are a joke, and they rattle miserably after only a few road
miles.
That said, it's obvious you haven't driven one recently. They are
anything
but "straight-line only metal." They handle remarkably well, and it
takes
very little suspension and frame work to prodify one for competitive
SCCA
racing. Once set up properly they are a bitch to beat. Only the
Dodge
Viper can compete in that price range. And of course with over 500
bhp, the
Corvette is anything but slow or sluggish. In a year or two the
Corvette ZO6
will have over 600 bhp.


The last Vette I drove was a 2004 and it still needed very smooth road
to do it's thing. It takes more than speed and handling on a track to
make a real world supercar. That's why most of my friends call an NSX
a supercar, but not a Vette. That's because the NSX does things so
well that it inspires confidence behind the wheel, yet doesn't betray
the driver at critical moments. I hate Vettes. They always rattle up a
storm after 20K.


Since the early 90s, the Vettes have been superb handling vehicles. Are you
referring to the older models?

Nope. I find the newer vette's nervous on less than perfect pavement,
much the way I find a WRX to be at times. By comparison it was always
easy to drive a 300ZX turbo to 130 HP and let it hang there.



The Mazdaspeed 6 is indeed a very competent automobile, both on the
track
and on pavement, but I believe you've greatly overstated its
abilties. It
is nowhere in the handling league with Vipers, Corvettes, and such.

That really depends on the situation. On a track you're right.


forthcoming Exige will outhandle everything we've mentioned so
far. The
demo Elise I drove--not a sport version, incidentally--simply blew me
away.
I had to own one.

Well, I'm jealous! I thought of buying one, but chickened out for now.
Please post a few pics and driving impressions when you get it.



It's governed to do quite a bit less than that. Remove the
governor and you
can kiss your warranty goodbye.


150 MPH is the top speed via the governor. That's probably enough.



The Elise (roadster) and Exige (coupe) are not supercars. Handling
may be
on par with supercars, but they lack the raw horsepower to be
supercars.

This is were we part ways. All reviews and my single test drive of an
Elise point these cars handling BETTER than the Supercars mentioned.
So they deserve the same respect for being top dogs in that arena. For
sheer speed their are other cars of course. A supercar is a class
leading sports car in performance and the Elise and Exige more than
make the mark. On top of that they are PLENTY fast. The 2005 Elise
with comp. package did the 1/4 in 13.2. That's amazing. Then throw in
it's light weight and handling....SUPERCAR.


AWD is nice, especially in crap weather. It even does well on the
track, if
engineered properly. My BMW 330 Ci (coupe, not convertible)
obviously
doesn't have it, but I think it's a fair trade to have RWD in a BMW
as
opposed to AWD. I have an additional set of rims with winter
ultra-performance tires in addition to the M rims with ultra-
performance
tires for summer use. Both get me around just fine, and I prefer the
RWD
for twisty roads.


We have some BMW's in our area, but all are AWD versions. It's the
only type of BMW I'd look at. As I said, AWD is my thing because it
makes the car fun even when the weather turns bad.

Supercars: Porsche GT3 or McLaren, Ferraris, Aston Martin Vantage,
Saleen
S7, Ford GT, Dodge Viper, Corvette ZO6, stuff like that.

I prefer your new car to most of those. I won't even put the Saleen,
Ford or Vette on the same page as the Exige. The Exige is just amazing
and 0-60 in four seconds is certainly supercar territory. The GT3
can't do it any faster and won't handle as well, so all that's left is
the top end.
You made the right choice. You have a supercar! (I won't tell your
wife).

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
First let me state categorically that I don't like Corvettes. Their
FRP
bodies are a joke, and they rattle miserably after only a few road
miles.
That said, it's obvious you haven't driven one recently. They are
anything
but "straight-line only metal." They handle remarkably well, and it
takes
very little suspension and frame work to prodify one for competitive
SCCA
racing. Once set up properly they are a bitch to beat. Only the
Dodge
Viper can compete in that price range. And of course with over 500
bhp, the
Corvette is anything but slow or sluggish. In a year or two the
Corvette ZO6
will have over 600 bhp.


The last Vette I drove was a 2004 and it still needed very smooth road
to do it's thing. It takes more than speed and handling on a track to
make a real world supercar.

By whose definition?? Do you think a Ferrari F430 will do any better on
rough pavement? Or a Porsche GT3?

That's why most of my friends call an NSX
a supercar, but not a Vette. That's because the NSX does things so
well that it inspires confidence behind the wheel, yet doesn't betray
the driver at critical moments. I hate Vettes. They always rattle up a
storm after 20K.

You pick the track or road, and I'll take the ZO6 while you take an NSX.
And you'll likely not see my taillights after five laps or five miles,
whichever comes first.

Since the early 90s, the Vettes have been superb handling vehicles. Are
you
referring to the older models?

Nope. I find the newer vette's nervous on less than perfect pavement,
much the way I find a WRX to be at times. By comparison it was always
easy to drive a 300ZX turbo to 130 HP and let it hang there.

My brother's Porsche Carrera gets "nervous" at about 150, but that certainly
doesn't disqualify it as a superb automobile in terms of handling and
straight-line performance.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is indeed a very competent automobile, both on the
track
and on pavement, but I believe you've greatly overstated its
abilties. It
is nowhere in the handling league with Vipers, Corvettes, and such.

That really depends on the situation. On a track you're right.

On decent roads as well. Only a fool would take his Viper or ZO6 down a
beat-up stretch of ****ty pavement at high speeds.

forthcoming Exige will outhandle everything we've mentioned so
far. The
demo Elise I drove--not a sport version, incidentally--simply blew me
away.
I had to own one.

Well, I'm jealous! I thought of buying one, but chickened out for now.
Please post a few pics and driving impressions when you get it.

I've got photos of a friend's Elise, but my car won't be here for a while.
The dealer told me today that the black on black is custom order and may not
be available. Fingers are crossed, it looks so incredibly kewl.

It's governed to do quite a bit less than that. Remove the
governor and you
can kiss your warranty goodbye.


150 MPH is the top speed via the governor. That's probably enough.

That car is probably not built to be particularly stable at that speed. Use
caution.


The Elise (roadster) and Exige (coupe) are not supercars. Handling
may be
on par with supercars, but they lack the raw horsepower to be
supercars.


This is were we part ways. All reviews and my single test drive of an
Elise point these cars handling BETTER than the Supercars mentioned.
So they deserve the same respect for being top dogs in that arena. For
sheer speed their are other cars of course. A supercar is a class
leading sports car in performance and the Elise and Exige more than
make the mark. On top of that they are PLENTY fast. The 2005 Elise
with comp. package did the 1/4 in 13.2. That's amazing. Then throw in
it's light weight and handling....SUPERCAR.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. It's meaningless to belabor
our two definitions.


AWD is nice, especially in crap weather. It even does well on the
track, if
engineered properly. My BMW 330 Ci (coupe, not convertible)
obviously
doesn't have it, but I think it's a fair trade to have RWD in a BMW
as
opposed to AWD. I have an additional set of rims with winter
ultra-performance tires in addition to the M rims with ultra-
performance
tires for summer use. Both get me around just fine, and I prefer the
RWD
for twisty roads.

We have some BMW's in our area, but all are AWD versions. It's the
only type of BMW I'd look at. As I said, AWD is my thing because it
makes the car fun even when the weather turns bad.

We get roughly 1 or 2 days a year here when AWD would mean the difference
between getting there or not. My wife's Highlander has AWD and it is nice,
but not necessary. My RWD BMW does fine with the Blizzaks.


Supercars: Porsche GT3 or McLaren, Ferraris, Aston Martin Vantage,
Saleen
S7, Ford GT, Dodge Viper, Corvette ZO6, stuff like that.

I prefer your new car to most of those. I won't even put the Saleen,
Ford or Vette on the same page as the Exige. The Exige is just amazing
and 0-60 in four seconds is certainly supercar territory. The GT3
can't do it any faster and won't handle as well, so all that's left is
the top end.
You made the right choice. You have a supercar! (I won't tell your
wife).

She was the one who picked the color.

Max

150 MPH is the top speed via the governor. That's probably enough.



That car is probably not built to be particularly stable at that
speed. Use
caution.


From 1st hand experience I know that the Speed6 is very stable at 155
MPH. The only mods on the car were a stage 2 exhaust and the CPU had
been flashed to disable the limiter. I doubt I'll take mine beyond 130
MPH very often. That's an arrest here if you get caught.


We get roughly 1 or 2 days a year here when AWD would mean the
difference
between getting there or not.


We get much more than that and the twisty narrow roads, while fun on
the good days, should also be safe for Suzanne's commute on the bad
days. AWD was the only choice for a 3rd car. But if I sell the MG
project, an Elise would be a too much fun to bear.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. It's meaningless to
belabor
our two definitions.

Okay, Supercar owner.


The dealer told me today that the black on black is custom order
and may not
be available. Fingers are crossed, it looks so incredibly kewl.


I'm sure he can get it or try another dealer. Money talks.


You pick the track or road, and I'll take the ZO6 while you take an
NSX.


If I pick a twisty road here, a REAL road which has an occasional bump
and crack, I believe you'd need a lot of practice to beat an NSX in a
Vette. I've driven the NSX on such roads and it's got simply world
class handling with precisely the correct amount of power available to
apply. The complient chassis inspires confidence where the Vette does
not. The NSX is a superbly balanced design and it's built to a
standard the Vette can't get close to.
Anyway....that's my opinion and I agree the Vette is faster, but I'd
rather have sex with Scotty's wife rather than own one for free.



RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
150 MPH is the top speed via the governor. That's probably enough.



That car is probably not built to be particularly stable at that
speed. Use
caution.


From 1st hand experience I know that the Speed6 is very stable at 155
MPH. The only mods on the car were a stage 2 exhaust and the CPU had
been flashed to disable the limiter. I doubt I'll take mine beyond 130
MPH very often. That's an arrest here if you get caught.


We get roughly 1 or 2 days a year here when AWD would mean the
difference
between getting there or not.


We get much more than that and the twisty narrow roads, while fun on
the good days, should also be safe for Suzanne's commute on the bad
days. AWD was the only choice for a 3rd car. But if I sell the MG
project, an Elise would be a too much fun to bear.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. It's meaningless to
belabor
our two definitions.

Okay, Supercar owner.


The dealer told me today that the black on black is custom order
and may not
be available. Fingers are crossed, it looks so incredibly kewl.


I'm sure he can get it or try another dealer. Money talks.


You pick the track or road, and I'll take the ZO6 while you take an
NSX.


If I pick a twisty road here, a REAL road which has an occasional bump
and crack, I believe you'd need a lot of practice to beat an NSX in a
Vette. I've driven the NSX on such roads and it's got simply world
class handling with precisely the correct amount of power available to
apply. The complient chassis inspires confidence where the Vette does
not. The NSX is a superbly balanced design and it's built to a
standard the Vette can't get close to.
Anyway....that's my opinion and I agree the Vette is faster, but I'd
rather have sex with Scotty's wife rather than own one for free.

Better check with Scotty's wife first. She'd probably rather buy you a
Vette than have sex with you.

I have a lot of time in an NSX--I owned one briefly, but mostly drove it
when a friend owned it. I've driven it hard on track days at Gingerman
(South Haven, MI) Raceway, and I agree it's a competent car. But it lacks
raw power. I tended to wait too late to brake in tight-radius curves for
fear of not being able to accelerate out of the curve adequately. Result:
I ran off the track twice until I accepted that it didn't have the brute
power to blast out of corners and that other, more powerful cars were simply
going to leave me behind. A ZO6, OTOH, would take some restraint on the
throttle to avoid spinning out of a curve, it has so much excess power and
torque. And the ZO6 would be into the next turn following a long straight
before the NSX would be halfway down the straight. Absolutely no
comparison. As for finessing the turns, the NSX might shine a bit, but only
there. According to the automotive press, the ZO6 is no slouch in
cornering.

Max

Maxprop wrote:

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
150 MPH is the top speed via the governor. That's probably enough.



That car is probably not built to be particularly stable at that
speed. Use
caution.


From 1st hand experience I know that the Speed6 is very stable at 155
MPH. The only mods on the car were a stage 2 exhaust and the CPU had
been flashed to disable the limiter. I doubt I'll take mine beyond 130
MPH very often. That's an arrest here if you get caught.


We get roughly 1 or 2 days a year here when AWD would mean the
difference
between getting there or not.


We get much more than that and the twisty narrow roads, while fun on
the good days, should also be safe for Suzanne's commute on the bad
days. AWD was the only choice for a 3rd car. But if I sell the MG
project, an Elise would be a too much fun to bear.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. It's meaningless to
belabor
our two definitions.

Okay, Supercar owner.


The dealer told me today that the black on black is custom order
and may not
be available. Fingers are crossed, it looks so incredibly kewl.


I'm sure he can get it or try another dealer. Money talks.


You pick the track or road, and I'll take the ZO6 while you take an
NSX.


If I pick a twisty road here, a REAL road which has an occasional bump
and crack, I believe you'd need a lot of practice to beat an NSX in a
Vette. I've driven the NSX on such roads and it's got simply world
class handling with precisely the correct amount of power available to
apply. The complient chassis inspires confidence where the Vette does
not. The NSX is a superbly balanced design and it's built to a
standard the Vette can't get close to.
Anyway....that's my opinion and I agree the Vette is faster, but I'd
rather have sex with Scotty's wife rather than own one for free.

Better check with Scotty's wife first. She'd probably rather buy you a
Vette than have sex with you.

More like blow him away with a shotgun. Dunno if they make birdshot or rat
shot loads in 12G, tho.

PDW