"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

Malarkey.

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.



..... But who borrows without
usury these days?


You're confused.

1- interest rates are near historic lows.

2- usury is the charging of excess interest, it has nothing to do
with the borrower.

DSK

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

Malarkey.

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

Oh my gawd, yet another brainwashed sucker whose bubble I must break.

If your bond fund returns 8% then you will not be able to borrow at 6%
interest.
Not possible. Nobody who's sane is going to lend you money to you at 6%
when they can lend it to an institution and get 8% for it.


Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card service charge. I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing checking account
will pay you.
Credit card companies aren't stupid. Why would they bother to give you a
card when they could do just what you suggest doing? They'd simply cut
out the middle man.


That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

Voodoo math. It only works if you leave out production costs...

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.

Negative, sarge. All the wealth you see in the hands of the credit card
companies would be evenly distributed among the general population.

You're confused.

1- interest rates are near historic lows.

2- usury is the charging of excess interest, it has nothing to do
with the borrower.

You're confused. Usury is just another name for interest. Any rate of
interest is usury. Interest rates are near historic lows. I agree. They
go in cycles. What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for investing. The man
who wishes to get rich lends. That's a fact.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has and
never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Neal,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You have an
interesting take on things, and although it would take the complete collapse
of my life as it exists now to find myself in a similar lifestyle, I would
probably find some happiness in a spartan existence. At least for a while. I
think I would soon yearn to accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point
is that those new things, at least initially, could be new sailing
adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat and ate
a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated something
about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into peppers than I. I
would never challenge him in a pepper eating contest. I still like peppers,
it's just that I like a plate of beans and rice with them.
Scout

"Scout" wrote in message
. ..
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has
and never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You
have an interesting take on things, and although it would take the
complete collapse of my life as it exists now to find myself in a
similar lifestyle, I would probably find some happiness in a spartan
existence. At least for a while. I think I would soon yearn to
accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point is that those new
things, at least initially, could be new sailing adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat
and ate a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated
something about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into
peppers than I. I would never challenge him in a pepper eating
contest. I still like peppers, it's just that I like a plate of beans
and rice with them.
Scout

Your take on food gives insight into your take on life. Hot peppers
serve only to burn out your taste buds to such an extent that you can no
longer taste the subtleties of milder foods. To taste something hot you
deny yourself tasting something mild. There are many more foods of a
milder and subtler nature than of a hot. So, gorge the few you deny
yourself the many. Dumb!

Overdoing life by borrowing is just another sign of gluttony of the hot
and spicy. People borrow because they want something above their means
and they want it now. In doing so they miss out on things that really
matter. Things such as realizing the real value of your labor vs. what
you can purchase with it. Things such as being patient. Things such as
never having to say, "I just don't have time." Things such as enjoying
the taste of the milder things in life without covering them up with the
hot and spicy. As with food, a mild life is easier to appreciate and
better for your health and well-being than a hot and spicy life. This
should be evident when viewed in the light of oh-so-many celebrities who
self-destruct. They can have anything they want. They generally try
everything hot and spicy and it all disappoints and disrupts to such an
extent they suicide or nervous breakdown, etc. When's the last time you
heard of a Buddhist Monk being so maladjusted in life?

One of the basic truths in life is simplicity. Many authors espouse the
simple life. Many readers say, "How cool is that!" But, then they go
right back to their overspent, overbudgeted, overharried, overextended
lives. It's an addiction that results in ruin. When you are thirsty go
to the well. Draw out a large draft and drink your fill. Don't run
around from lemonade stand to lemonade stand quaffing thimbleful after
thimbleful which results in continued thirst.

Wilbur Hubbard

wrote in message
oups.com..
..


Fiscal responsibility is one facet of being a responsible
adult in
other aspects.


'responsible' and 'adult'...two words that have never been
used to characterize 'Wilbur'.

SBV

A QUOTE FROM STERLING HAYDEN'S BOOK, WANDERER

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm
foundation of financial unrest.


O baloney.
C'mon Bart, would you set of an a major cruise with a guy who said "We
have to leave tonight, whatever the tide or weather, I am fleeing the
sheriffs"? Would you sail with a skipper who said "I couldn't afford
to outfit the boat properly so I skipped many things and bought cheap
junk for the rest"??

I wouldn't and I doubt you would either.



...... Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the
wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in.

Sounds romantic, but one should beware the spoiled child (whatever his
age may be) who tries to make a virtue out of being selfish & short-
sighted; and demanding that everybody around him pay the price of his
indulgences.




What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day,

Less.
Water is more important.

heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working
activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in
the material sense, and we know it.

There is also such a thing as providing security for your family.


But we are brainwashed by our
economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time
payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our
attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.


Yep
Easy to avoid though. It's called "do the math" and at one time was
fairly popular.


Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
..... Ask yourself do you
have time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry and playthings that
divert your attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade? If anybody
but myself answers negative on all the above then he is a liar.

Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back.


I'm
willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has and never has
had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage in his entire life.

??
So? Bragging that you *never* use credit is every bit as stupid and
bragging that you *always* use credit. Time payments, mortgages, all
forms of credit, are a financial tool that can be used sensibly.

Would you respect a man who proclaimed himself an expert mechanic,
then scornfully said "I *never* use a ratchet drive, that is for wimps
& fools."


Unlike ALL you people, I have never been, am not now, and never shall be
a slave to the economic system.

Unless you have a very odd definition, very few other ASA'ers are
"slaves to the economic system."


.... Sterling Hayden sold his book to wannabes who would never
be an they knew it full well.

Sterling Hayden's book 'Wanderer' is an attempt to spin a romantic
adventure out of his fleeing the law & financial troubles that he
brought on himself. The early parts where he talks about the great
schooner races are the best & most honest parts of the book.

A great experience, but thirty years later he had learned nothing
further about sailing & proclaimed that he had nothing more to learn.
An example I prefer to not follow, although I envy his early
experiences.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

* Bart wrote, On 3/3/2007 5:37 PM:
A QUOTE FROM STERLING HAYDEN'S BOOK, WANDERER

....

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy
of purse or bankruptcy of life?

- Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973)


"But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have
neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic
thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration,
Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international
Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily
fluids." - Sterling Hayden (as General Jack D Ripper)

On Mar 3, 4:37 pm, "Bart" wrote:
A QUOTE FROM STERLING HAYDEN'S BOOK, WANDERER

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm
foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine
traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at
sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the
wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are
contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture
until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is
all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford
it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in
the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security
we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know
it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day,
heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working
activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in
the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our
economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time
payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our
attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie
caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb
is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy
of purse or bankruptcy of life?

- Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973)

Hey Bart;

Where have you been?

Joe

"Bart" wrote in message
ups.com...
A QUOTE FROM STERLING HAYDEN'S BOOK, WANDERER

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm
foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine
traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at
sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the
wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are
contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture
until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is
all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford
it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in
the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security
we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know
it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day,
heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working
activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in
the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our
economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time
payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our
attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie
caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb
is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy
of purse or bankruptcy of life?

- Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973)



Great book... I read a couple of his.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

This is a drunken sailor rehash of Henry David Thoreau. Unfortunately Hayden
did not walk the talk. He left a lot of human wreckage in his wake, was a
communist and all his blather was simply to justify all the wrongs he did in
his life.

For a clean version of this philosophy read Thoreau. He lived it and applied
it to his life in a consistent manner. His actions were derived froma
philosophy with a true goal in mind. His actions were not driven by external
events, as was Hayden's.

Hayden is swimming in flouridated lava, Thoreau is in the kingdom of heaven

Amen!