"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
message ...


If you know what you're doing, one can make money with
good
credit. Obviously this leaves you out.

I can shoot down each and
every one of their fallacious arguments just like I just
shot down
yours.


No you can't and no you didn't. You have no clue whatsoever.


The next thing you'll be telling me is how fabulous an
investment
a house is.

Fabulous?, A solid investment, absolutely.

SBV

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

Malarkey.

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

Oh my gawd, yet another brainwashed sucker whose bubble I must break.

If your bond fund returns 8% then you will not be able to borrow at 6%
interest.
Not possible. Nobody who's sane is going to lend you money to you at 6%
when they can lend it to an institution and get 8% for it.


Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card service charge. I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing checking account
will pay you.
Credit card companies aren't stupid. Why would they bother to give you a
card when they could do just what you suggest doing? They'd simply cut
out the middle man.


That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

Voodoo math. It only works if you leave out production costs...

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.

Negative, sarge. All the wealth you see in the hands of the credit card
companies would be evenly distributed among the general population.

You're confused.

1- interest rates are near historic lows.

2- usury is the charging of excess interest, it has nothing to do
with the borrower.

You're confused. Usury is just another name for interest. Any rate of
interest is usury. Interest rates are near historic lows. I agree. They
go in cycles. What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for investing. The man
who wishes to get rich lends. That's a fact.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard"

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card
service charge.

Service charge? WTF?

I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing
checking account
will pay you.

WRONG!


Credit card companies aren't stupid.

No, but they're greedy. One can take advantage of this if
one knows how. Obviosly you don't.




Voodoo math.

Translation; I don't understand it.



What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for
investing. The man
who wishes to get rich lends. That's a fact.


Your fact is WRONG!

SBV

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
Oh my gawd, yet another brainwashed sucker whose bubble I must break.


Go ahead

If your bond fund returns 8% then you will not be able to borrow at 6%
interest.

Wrong.

In fact, there are many bond funds paying upwards of 9% on high grade
commercial paper (ie no junk bonds). One can relatively easily get a
house mortgage at 6.5%

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AHITX
scroll down and check the 5 year average return. And that's one of the
big house plain vanilla bond funds.

Not possible. Nobody who's sane is going to lend you money to you at 6%
when they can lend it to an institution and get 8% for it.


Go talk to "them" because "they" are doing exactly that.



Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card service charge.

Wrong again. Perfect record!

If one pays his credit card bill before interest charges accrue, then
one does not pay interest. On my credit card bill, under "interest"
and "service charge" there is a big fat ZERO.



..... I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing checking account
will pay you.

Oh, don't be afraid. It's not manly.


Credit card companies aren't stupid. Why would they bother to give you a
card when they could do just what you suggest doing? They'd simply cut
out the middle man.


Because then they wouldn't be a "credit card company" they'd be
arbitragers. And for those who *don't* pay their bill in a timely
manner, interest rates are higher yet. A very expensive way to borrow
money.


That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

Voodoo math. It only works if you leave out production costs...


Spoken from your years of experience as a CEO.

Guess what, just about all the business world makes a profit by
borrowing money. What do you think stocks & corporate bonds are all
about?

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.

Negative, sarge. All the wealth you see in the hands of the credit card
companies would be evenly distributed among the general population.


So you're a Marxist now?



You're confused. Usury is just another name for interest.


Ummm, no.

Any rate of
interest is usury.

Wrong.

Go look it up.

And "Usury" is still a demerit to the kender, the one who charges
usuriously, not the borrower.


.... What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for investing.

Nope. Done it for years. I guess you think the earth is flat, too.
Careful you don't sail off the edge!

DSK

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has and
never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Neal,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You have an
interesting take on things, and although it would take the complete collapse
of my life as it exists now to find myself in a similar lifestyle, I would
probably find some happiness in a spartan existence. At least for a while. I
think I would soon yearn to accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point
is that those new things, at least initially, could be new sailing
adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat and ate
a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated something
about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into peppers than I. I
would never challenge him in a pepper eating contest. I still like peppers,
it's just that I like a plate of beans and rice with them.
Scout

Bart,
I just got your message.
I'll get back to you this weekend.
Been out of town and have a daughter getting married on St. Patty's day.
Your call got lost in with all the RSVP's.
Fun fun.
Scout


"Bart" wrote in message
ups.com...
A QUOTE FROM STERLING HAYDEN'S BOOK, WANDERER

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm
foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine
traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at
sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the
wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are
contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture
until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is
all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford
it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in
the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security
we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know
it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day,
heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working
activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in
the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our
economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time
payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our
attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie
caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb
is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy
of purse or bankruptcy of life?

- Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973)

"Scout" wrote in message
. ..
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has
and never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You
have an interesting take on things, and although it would take the
complete collapse of my life as it exists now to find myself in a
similar lifestyle, I would probably find some happiness in a spartan
existence. At least for a while. I think I would soon yearn to
accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point is that those new
things, at least initially, could be new sailing adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat
and ate a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated
something about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into
peppers than I. I would never challenge him in a pepper eating
contest. I still like peppers, it's just that I like a plate of beans
and rice with them.
Scout

Your take on food gives insight into your take on life. Hot peppers
serve only to burn out your taste buds to such an extent that you can no
longer taste the subtleties of milder foods. To taste something hot you
deny yourself tasting something mild. There are many more foods of a
milder and subtler nature than of a hot. So, gorge the few you deny
yourself the many. Dumb!

Overdoing life by borrowing is just another sign of gluttony of the hot
and spicy. People borrow because they want something above their means
and they want it now. In doing so they miss out on things that really
matter. Things such as realizing the real value of your labor vs. what
you can purchase with it. Things such as being patient. Things such as
never having to say, "I just don't have time." Things such as enjoying
the taste of the milder things in life without covering them up with the
hot and spicy. As with food, a mild life is easier to appreciate and
better for your health and well-being than a hot and spicy life. This
should be evident when viewed in the light of oh-so-many celebrities who
self-destruct. They can have anything they want. They generally try
everything hot and spicy and it all disappoints and disrupts to such an
extent they suicide or nervous breakdown, etc. When's the last time you
heard of a Buddhist Monk being so maladjusted in life?

One of the basic truths in life is simplicity. Many authors espouse the
simple life. Many readers say, "How cool is that!" But, then they go
right back to their overspent, overbudgeted, overharried, overextended
lives. It's an addiction that results in ruin. When you are thirsty go
to the well. Draw out a large draft and drink your fill. Don't run
around from lemonade stand to lemonade stand quaffing thimbleful after
thimbleful which results in continued thirst.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Scout" wrote in message
. ..
Bart,
I just got your message.
I'll get back to you this weekend.
Been out of town and have a daughter getting married on St. Patty's day.
Your call got lost in with all the RSVP's.
Fun fun.
Scout


Hey that's great Scout! Much congratulation!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat
and ate a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated
something about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into
peppers than I.


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
Your take on food gives insight into your take on life. Hot peppers
serve only to burn out your taste buds to such an extent that you can no
longer taste the subtleties of milder foods.


??

You should back up and actually *read* Scout's statement.

..... To taste something hot you
deny yourself tasting something mild.


Well, that's true enough, as for the instant you are eating it. After
all you can't eat two things at once. However, eating peppers (or some
other spicy dish) no more "burns out your taste buds" than looking at
a beautiful sight "burns out your eyes."

And of course, "Wilbur Hubbard" doesn't understand money any more than
he understands food:

Overdoing life by borrowing is just another sign of gluttony of the hot
and spicy. People borrow because they want something above their means
and they want it now.

In some cases, yes. In others, definitely not so. As I said earlier,
credit is a financial tool just like a saw is woodworking tool. It can
be used intelligently or foolishly.

For example, a Skilsaw is a tool that can be used safely or
dangerously, well or poorly. The tool itself does not determine how it
is used. If you met a man who claimed to be an expert mechanic, and
then witnessed him attempting to work on an engine with a Skilsaw, you
would doubt his craft. When a person shows no more grasp of credit &
interest than a medieval peasant, then others should not consider his
words on finance to be wisdom.

DSK

wrote in message
ps.com...
I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat
and ate a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both
appreciated
something about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into
peppers than I.


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
Your take on food gives insight into your take on life. Hot peppers
serve only to burn out your taste buds to such an extent that you can
no
longer taste the subtleties of milder foods.


??

You should back up and actually *read* Scout's statement.

..... To taste something hot you
deny yourself tasting something mild.


Well, that's true enough, as for the instant you are eating it. After
all you can't eat two things at once. However, eating peppers (or some
other spicy dish) no more "burns out your taste buds" than looking at
a beautiful sight "burns out your eyes."

And of course, "Wilbur Hubbard" doesn't understand money any more than
he understands food:

Overdoing life by borrowing is just another sign of gluttony of the
hot
and spicy. People borrow because they want something above their
means
and they want it now.

In some cases, yes. In others, definitely not so. As I said earlier,
credit is a financial tool just like a saw is woodworking tool. It can
be used intelligently or foolishly.

For example, a Skilsaw is a tool that can be used safely or
dangerously, well or poorly. The tool itself does not determine how it
is used. If you met a man who claimed to be an expert mechanic, and
then witnessed him attempting to work on an engine with a Skilsaw, you
would doubt his craft. When a person shows no more grasp of credit &
interest than a medieval peasant, then others should not consider his
words on finance to be wisdom.

DSK


Peasant! Surely you jest! When you have a couple million dollars
invested and earning around 12% interest and capital gains per anum,
crawl back out of your mortgaged hovel and try explaining that all
again.... While you pay interest, I earn it. That's the difference
between sanity and insanity.

Wilbur Hubbard