"Jeff" wrote in message
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Maxprop wrote:

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign
as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole
and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for strong
current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge. Our return
was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots, until the owner
realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and had a long slog back
upwind! But we didn't capsize.

Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for
a child. And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of
anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio
in anything under a gale and monster waves.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never seen
a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was a
lightweight.

I love to singlehand Hobie 16s from the wire in about 10kts. It's fun and
fast.

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti
in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've
never capsized one, however.

Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge.

No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very
experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing
reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out.


Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard
*must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water.
But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced
them extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme
conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it
wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I allowed
too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole!

No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that
boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to
correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return.

Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's)
and had never capsized.

I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance.
Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing
Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake, with a Lightning not far
behind. And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike
those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into
flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you
really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit
to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the
transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470.

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of
racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly
experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that
description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of
sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level.

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?

I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic. I was
simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a
high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or
Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is
an FJ, by the way.


No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their
wake as well. You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your
faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do
give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't
cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind
conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big
seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better
chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water.

Max