These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co

Cheers,
Ellen

Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co

Cheers,
Ellen

"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping
then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who
has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis.
I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping.
And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to
the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing
so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the
back of the pack.

Max

Jeeez... when I was a kid we used to deliberately turtle the dinghies
despite being told not to do it. They would be po'd, because we kept coming
back with mud on the masthead. It was a nice mountain lake, and I think they
were concerned we'd break the boats on the stumps on the lake bed.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?
Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.
Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to
the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack.

First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I
really don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows
count as "high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of
times (except the scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's
more than a stretch to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high
performance dinghy." 505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and
lightning weigh in at 515 and 700 respectively, with about the same
sail area.

Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty
soon after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was
considered "high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in
stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would
do gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How
else to you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't
flip a few times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie
16's, I never raced but had access to a one at a club and generally
took out recreational sailors with no high performance or racing
experience to give them a little thrill. The dock crew would always
joke about warming up the crash boat.

Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen
years or so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in
certain boats. In fact, I can remember races when every boat went
down! Of course, the better skippers flipped less often than novices,
but during practices it was no big deal. (And college racers don't
use chutes.)

And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when
it counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of
times while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few
sleeping bags and a pack under the bow and head off to the islands!
Capsizing in this situation wold not have been a good idea.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Maxprop wrote:
Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention.

I take issue with your taking issue.

For one thing, none of the boats you mention are "high performance."
The Snipe and the Lightning are designs from the 1930s for pete's sake!
Scows and Hobie 16s are sort of performance boats but only from the
standpoint of being compared to old kludgy boats.... scows were
originated as a type in the 1890s and have not really made any greater
strides than conventional boats since then... less so IMHO.

Ensigns?!???!? Fun to sail but hardly "performance". And they do
capsize, just try broaching one with a chute up in 20+ knot winds.

For another thing, any time you are learning & practicing a new
technique... such as windward heel on a Laser... then you are liable to
blow it and capsize. The only way to avoid this is to never learn to
power up the boat or try new techniques. If you never flipped learning
to roll-gybe, then you have never learned to roll-gybe.


... I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats.

Damn sure not in a Laser unless you're a fat old duffer. Heck I've
flipped twice on the first leg in a Laser and still finished in the
hunt.

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad
design?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co

Cheers,
Ellen


Reminds me of when I was sailing in college... the most fun you can have
with your clothes on.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad
design?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co

Cheers,
Ellen


Reminds me of when I was sailing in college... the most fun you can have
with your clothes on.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Only time I ever sailed a Hobi 16 we pitchpoled it in a thunderstorm
that came up suddenly. The shrouds tore out of the hulls and the mast
broke.