JimC wrote:
And let me point out again, its not the weight, its the location.
A 250 pound engine hanging off the stern contribute far more to
the pitch moment than an inboard close to the center of the boat.


Well, that's clear enough, and I agree. But once more, the boat is
built to be balanced fore and aft with a motor and a crew in the
cockpit. And it is.



Totally irrelevant.


Nope. It's actually quite relevant. The boat is built to be balanced,
under sail or power, with the motor and a typical crew in the cockpit.
By "balance" I meant that the hull, motor, ballast, and sails work
togther to
cause the boat to to sail and motor as efficiently as possible under a
variety
of applications. In general, it sails and powers well, it doesn't
"pitch" excessively,
and it is fun to sail.

Nice backpedal. It clearly isn't what you meant the first few times
around, but if you think it saves some face for you, so be it.

or you just showing what type of lawyer you really are. Obviously
the boat was designed to float on its lines with full ballast and an
engine. The issue is whether a different distribution of mass would
lead to a boat that sails better.


And just how would you redistribute the mass, Jeff? - Where would you
move the outboard, and where would you move the ballast?

I would not have designed this boat at all, so don't asked me have I
might change it. All I wanted to do when I started this topic of
discussion was to rationally consider how the different weight
distribution affects stability and balance. But you wanted to turn
this into something quite different.


The 26M is the result of years of development, feedback, and mods. It
does a lot of things most sailboats can't do. If serves the needs of
most sailors, under the conditions experienced 90% of the time.

That's nonsense!!!

It's relatively inexpensive,

debatable

if you are willing to compare the costs of new
boats to new boats, or used boats to used boats, and not compare the
costs of 15 year old boats with that of a new Mac 26M similarly
equipped.

So why do they seem to depreciate twice as fast as other boats?


And, (I almost forgot) it's a lot of fun to sail.

only for those with low standards.


Maybe it would. But it's still a lot of fun to sail as it is. (I'm
repeating myself, but isn't that the point, after all?


Is it? Little children think picking their nose is fun, is that your
standard? You fight every detail tooth and nail, even when you know
you're wrong, and then you say "it doesn't matter that I'm lying
because I'm having fun."


Jeff, we may have differing opinions, and you seem to have confused your
own opinions as facts, but would you please name the more egregious
instances of my lying? Perhaps you could list the top ten instances?

Being a clever lawyer, you word things so that they will be taken one
way, but you can claim you said something different. Your comment
above about balance was one such example. The "double liner"
discussion is another. Your claim that the outboard is much lighter
than a diesel is another. Your claim that the ballast is very close
to the center is yet another.

They question is, Jim, when have you been completely truthful?


The boat is fast enough to be fun to sail, Jeff. It's not as fast as
some other boats, but it's still fun to sail. - Isn't that the important
factor.? (Actually, I wasn't having too much problem keeping up with
some, though not all, of the larger boats on my last cruise.)

All boats are fun to sail. That's not the point. You make lots of
claims, and then try to write them off by saying, "but its fun to
sail." What's your point?







However, I don't think I agree that a typical diesel, with
generator, fuel pump, filters, prop shaft, etc., would weigh about
the same as a modern outboard. - Any stats on that one?



I thought I just gave one. The weight of a 15 Hp Yanmar, including
everything (alternator, pumps, filter) except the shaft and prop is
249 lbs. Clearly one might add another fuel filter or water filter,
and the muffler weighs a few pounds (mine are plastic) but all of
this is only a few pounds, and then your outboard also has a few
extra bits and pieces not included in its base weight. Also, since
the diesel generates almost twice the power from a pound of fuel,
one can claim a huge weight advantage on that front.



That's more than my 50 hp weighs. Also, add the weight of the drive
shaft, the drive shaft bushings, the mounting hardware, the
reinforcements to the hull supporting the motor, etc.


Yes, we know that the mac has no reinforcements to the hull supporting
its motor. You really are intent on showing how lawyers lie, aren't
you?

It has enough.


You made the claim that a diesel is much heavier than an outboard, and
that simply isn't true. Further, the issue has nothing to do with the
possible difference of 20 pounds, it has to do with the distribution.

As to the relative weight, it seems that you want us to accept your
personal opinions about how much the typical diesel engine for a small
sailboat weighs from your

I was quoting from the Yanmar specs, using the most frequently spec'd
diesel for small sailboats. Originally I mentioned to two cylinder
version, because you had asked what someone had in their boat. But
for one as light as the Mac, a one cylinder could do.

single example, which omitted the necessary
weight of the drive shaft, the mounting, etc..

I mentioned to driver shaft. However, the weight on that could vary a
lot, and its so low it could be considered ballast.

From your note, it seems
that you are saying that I should just shut up and accept your
propaganda based on that example. - Perhaps it would clarify things if
you provided some stats about the weight of several typical diesel
installations on smaller boats. (Including ALL associated components,
including drive shaft, cooling system, through-hull components, fuel and
water filters, pumps, mounting structures, controls, fuel tanks, etc.)

More lies! I mentioned that the weight for a diesel doesn't include
several items, including the drive shaft. It does include most of the
others you've mentioned - fuel filter, cooling system, pumps,
alternators etc. Some of what you claim are needed for your
installation. Are you trying to claim there is no mounting hardware
or reinforcement, no controls, no fuel tanks? How about the fact that
the gas engine needs twice the fuel?

And of course, the primary issue here is that the weight of the diesel
is well forward, while the outboard is as far aft as possible.




And BTW, the diesel appropriate for a boat as light as yours would be
a single cylinder, which would weigh just about the same as your
outboard.

Care to provide specs on a few examples, Jeff, along with their gross
weight?

The Yanmar 1GM is 179 pounds with transmission.


And, as mentioned above, remember that the Mac, with its high
freeboard and light weight, needs substantial power to get through chop
and adverse wind conditions, to stay on course in extreme weather, and
to dock efficiently. - A small diesel isn't going to cut it. Also, a
small diesel isn't going to get the boat on a plane either. - No more
quick runs back to the marina, no quick passages to desired skiing
areas, no water tubing for the kids, etc.)

Hey, you're the one who brought this up. You claimed your engine was
much lighter than the diesel on most similarly sized sailboats. I
pointed out you're wrong.