"otnmbrd" wrote
| Let me give an example which may help some understand my thoughts on RAM and
| small pleasure boats.....
| Take an 8' pram with a small Seagull outboard (2hp?) towing a 25' powerboat
| using a bridle from cleats on either side of the stern and, say, 20' tow
| line.
| Would this boat be maneuverable? Not really..... he's underpowered and with
| the bridle set-up will have a problem making any but the smallest course
| corrections.


Your thoughts are your own.... But the Rules are the Rules!

"(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and
her tow in their ability to deviate from their course."

The question you should be asking isn't *would this boat be maneuverable*. It's *is this
boat severely restricted in its ability to deviate from it's course*? It's plain that it's NOT!
It's as simple as turning the tiller handle. Or throttling back. It might not turn as fast or
slow down as fast as it can by itself. But it can do both. There's nothing severe about it.
Severe is being stuck to a dredge pipe, or being attached to a boat your supplying or being
attached to a wreck or having a mine ten feet away on either side of you. That's what
the examples tell you. A towboat severely restricted means the same freakin' thing. Say
it's going around the bend in a river. It can't change course or the barge will hit the
bank. It can't slow down or the barge will hit the bank. That's severe. Duh!

3(g) "from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by
these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel."

How can you say your example is *unable* to keep out of the way of Scotty's sailboat?
It's so simple. Turn the tiller sooner instead of later of turn off the freakin' motor and
stay out of the way of the sailboat.
It's silly to say your example is RAM. The rule just doesn't support it. Two motor boats
is all they are. One's running the other's broke down.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote
| Let me give an example which may help some understand my thoughts on RAM and
| small pleasure boats.....
| Take an 8' pram with a small Seagull outboard (2hp?) towing a 25' powerboat
| using a bridle from cleats on either side of the stern and, say, 20' tow
| line.
| Would this boat be maneuverable? Not really..... he's underpowered and with
| the bridle set-up will have a problem making any but the smallest course
| corrections.


Your thoughts are your own.... But the Rules are the Rules!

He just described a case were being underpowered and restricted in the
ability to manuver.
If he just slows the tow would run him over, turning may take a while
due to mass so the guy towing is severly resricted, but you feel free
to push the issue with the next heavy underpowered tow you see.

Joe

Cheers,
Ellen

"Joe" wrote
| He just described a case were being underpowered and restricted in the
| ability to manuver.

No argument. That's what he did. But the rule doesn't say that. It says
*severely* Being restricted isn't RAM. Being severely restricted and unable
to keep out of the way of another vessel is RAM.

| If he just slows the tow would run him over, turning may take a while
| due to mass so the guy towing is severly resricted, but you feel free
| to push the issue with the next heavy underpowered tow you see.

Tuff. Tows slow down too when they stop being towed. Tuff again on
the turning. Taking a while isn't in the rule. Unable is in the rule.
Me? Get in front of those things? Never! But, that don't make em RAM.


Cheers,
Ellen

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


Your thoughts are your own.... But the Rules are the Rules!

"(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely
restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate
from their course."

The question you should be asking isn't *would this boat be
maneuverable*.

No, the question is *would this boat (in my example) and it's tow be
severly restricted in their ability to deviate from their course*......
answer..... quite probably under most conditions, yes.

It's *is this
boat severely restricted in its ability to deviate from it's course*?
It's plain that it's NOT! It's as simple as turning the tiller handle.

G Try turning that tiller handle with no regard to the size/weight of
your tow and see how far you get. At best you'll get nowhere, at worst
you'll get tripped and end up in the drink with the pram on top of you.


Or throttling back.

...... and start praying the tow doesn't run you over.


It might not turn as fast or slow down as fast as
it can by itself. But it can do both. There's nothing severe about it.

Depends on the circumstances.... in my example it's probably severe.


Severe is being stuck to a dredge pipe

Doesn't apply to this case in questio
, or being attached to a boat
your supplying or being attached to a wreck

Doesn't apply to the case in question.

or having a mine ten feet
away on either side of you.

May or may not apply.
That's what the examples tell you.

You really do have limited experience. The examples are of types of
vessels which may be RAM..... not all are considered "towing vessels" and
in fact few are.


A
towboat severely restricted means the same freakin' thing. Say it's
going around the bend in a river. It can't change course or the barge
will hit the bank. It can't slow down or the barge will hit the bank.
That's severe. Duh!

ROFL


3(g) "from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to
maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep
out of the way of another vessel."

How can you say your example is *unable* to keep out of the way of
Scotty's sailboat?

Simple.....because of the size/hullshape/hp/towing arrangement of the
pram, it and it's tow are severely restricted in it's ability to deviate
from it's course.

It's so simple. Turn the tiller sooner instead of later of turn off
the freakin' motor and stay out of the way of the sailboat.

BG

It's silly to say your example is RAM. The rule just doesn't
support it. Two motor boats
is all they are. One's running the other's broke down.

G If we listen to you, then you should be highly qualified to go aboard
any towboat and do the job..... simple....turn the tiller and jocky the
throttles.......

otn

Cheers,
Ellen

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Severe is being stuck to a dredge pipe
|
| Doesn't apply to this case in questio
| , or being attached to a boat
| your supplying or being attached to a wreck
|
| Doesn't apply to the case in question.
|
| or having a mine ten feet
| away on either side of you.
|
| May or may not apply.
| That's what the examples tell you.
|
| You really do have limited experience. The examples are of types of
| vessels which may be RAM..... not all are considered "towing vessels" and
| in fact few are.


BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get that wax outta your ears.
Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're examples of what the rule
says. Mind pictures. You could think of other examples. That's why they said not limited to.
But any other examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it? I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules. Even when the rule's
written so any old retard can understand it. Even when I tell you twice why they put the
examples in there. Duh! (You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen

The problem is not my understanding of the examples.
The problem is that your blond scatterbrain cannot focus on the issue nor
does it understand the potential dangers involved in towing, be it a
designated towing vessel or a recreational craft..... your response as to
what a "towing vessel" can or can not do show that.
Let me state some points, then I'll end this nonsense.
1. A towing vessel is not automatically RAM
2. "A vessel engaged in towing" could be a commercial vessel or a
recreational vessel.
3. Since the average recreational vessel does not have the day shapes or
light signals to designate RAM, this does not mean you can ignore that
possibility he is RAM, while towing.... to do so means you don't know or
understand Rule 2.
4. If you don't think a small underpowered pram towing a 26' boat is more
than likely "severely restricted" under all but the best conditions (if
then), then you don't understand the potential dangers of towing and it's
highly unlikely you can apply these dangers to other vessel
configurations.

In Scotty's case, he did not know the other vessel was towing until he
had passed ahead and I took his questions to be "hypothetical", where he
was trying to think of all the possibilities....rule-wise.... that may
have existed for this incident.

otn




"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:

BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they
put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get
that wax outta your ears. Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready
to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to
understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're
examples of what the rule says. Mind pictures. You could think of
other examples. That's why they said not limited to. But any other
examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just
as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's
a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it?
I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules.
Even when the rule's written so any old retard can understand it.
Even when I tell you twice why they put the examples in there. Duh!
(You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed
man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's
big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen

Neal is now a blonde?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...


The problem is not my understanding of the examples.
The problem is that your blond scatterbrain cannot focus on the issue nor
does it understand the potential dangers involved in towing, be it a
designated towing vessel or a recreational craft..... your response as to
what a "towing vessel" can or can not do show that.
Let me state some points, then I'll end this nonsense.
1. A towing vessel is not automatically RAM
2. "A vessel engaged in towing" could be a commercial vessel or a
recreational vessel.
3. Since the average recreational vessel does not have the day shapes or
light signals to designate RAM, this does not mean you can ignore that
possibility he is RAM, while towing.... to do so means you don't know or
understand Rule 2.
4. If you don't think a small underpowered pram towing a 26' boat is more
than likely "severely restricted" under all but the best conditions (if
then), then you don't understand the potential dangers of towing and it's
highly unlikely you can apply these dangers to other vessel
configurations.

In Scotty's case, he did not know the other vessel was towing until he
had passed ahead and I took his questions to be "hypothetical", where he
was trying to think of all the possibilities....rule-wise.... that may
have existed for this incident.

otn




"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:

BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they
put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get
that wax outta your ears. Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready
to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to
understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're
examples of what the rule says. Mind pictures. You could think of
other examples. That's why they said not limited to. But any other
examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just
as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's
a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it?
I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules.
Even when the rule's written so any old retard can understand it.
Even when I tell you twice why they put the examples in there. Duh!
(You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed
man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's
big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen

Wait for 'her' to use the term 'pecking order'. That'll clinch it...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Neal is now a blonde?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...


The problem is not my understanding of the examples.
The problem is that your blond scatterbrain cannot focus on the issue
nor
does it understand the potential dangers involved in towing, be it a
designated towing vessel or a recreational craft..... your response as
to
what a "towing vessel" can or can not do show that.
Let me state some points, then I'll end this nonsense.
1. A towing vessel is not automatically RAM
2. "A vessel engaged in towing" could be a commercial vessel or a
recreational vessel.
3. Since the average recreational vessel does not have the day shapes or
light signals to designate RAM, this does not mean you can ignore that
possibility he is RAM, while towing.... to do so means you don't know or
understand Rule 2.
4. If you don't think a small underpowered pram towing a 26' boat is
more
than likely "severely restricted" under all but the best conditions (if
then), then you don't understand the potential dangers of towing and
it's
highly unlikely you can apply these dangers to other vessel
configurations.

In Scotty's case, he did not know the other vessel was towing until he
had passed ahead and I took his questions to be "hypothetical", where he
was trying to think of all the possibilities....rule-wise.... that may
have existed for this incident.

otn




"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:

BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they
put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get
that wax outta your ears. Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready
to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to
understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're
examples of what the rule says. Mind pictures. You could think of
other examples. That's why they said not limited to. But any other
examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just
as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's
a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it?
I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules.
Even when the rule's written so any old retard can understand it.
Even when I tell you twice why they put the examples in there. Duh!
(You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed
man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's
big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen

I've used it in the past; therefore, I must be Neal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
Wait for 'her' to use the term 'pecking order'. That'll clinch it...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Neal is now a blonde?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...


The problem is not my understanding of the examples.
The problem is that your blond scatterbrain cannot focus on the issue
nor
does it understand the potential dangers involved in towing, be it a
designated towing vessel or a recreational craft..... your response as
to
what a "towing vessel" can or can not do show that.
Let me state some points, then I'll end this nonsense.
1. A towing vessel is not automatically RAM
2. "A vessel engaged in towing" could be a commercial vessel or a
recreational vessel.
3. Since the average recreational vessel does not have the day shapes
or
light signals to designate RAM, this does not mean you can ignore that
possibility he is RAM, while towing.... to do so means you don't know
or
understand Rule 2.
4. If you don't think a small underpowered pram towing a 26' boat is
more
than likely "severely restricted" under all but the best conditions (if
then), then you don't understand the potential dangers of towing and
it's
highly unlikely you can apply these dangers to other vessel
configurations.

In Scotty's case, he did not know the other vessel was towing until he
had passed ahead and I took his questions to be "hypothetical", where
he
was trying to think of all the possibilities....rule-wise.... that may
have existed for this incident.

otn




"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:

BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they
put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get
that wax outta your ears. Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready
to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to
understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're
examples of what the rule says. Mind pictures. You could think of
other examples. That's why they said not limited to. But any other
examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just
as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's
a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it?
I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules.
Even when the rule's written so any old retard can understand it.
Even when I tell you twice why they put the examples in there. Duh!
(You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed
man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's
big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen

What am I saying??! :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
Wait for 'her' to use the term 'pecking order'. That'll clinch it...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Neal is now a blonde?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...


The problem is not my understanding of the examples.
The problem is that your blond scatterbrain cannot focus on the issue
nor
does it understand the potential dangers involved in towing, be it a
designated towing vessel or a recreational craft..... your response as
to
what a "towing vessel" can or can not do show that.
Let me state some points, then I'll end this nonsense.
1. A towing vessel is not automatically RAM
2. "A vessel engaged in towing" could be a commercial vessel or a
recreational vessel.
3. Since the average recreational vessel does not have the day shapes
or
light signals to designate RAM, this does not mean you can ignore that
possibility he is RAM, while towing.... to do so means you don't know
or
understand Rule 2.
4. If you don't think a small underpowered pram towing a 26' boat is
more
than likely "severely restricted" under all but the best conditions (if
then), then you don't understand the potential dangers of towing and
it's
highly unlikely you can apply these dangers to other vessel
configurations.

In Scotty's case, he did not know the other vessel was towing until he
had passed ahead and I took his questions to be "hypothetical", where
he
was trying to think of all the possibilities....rule-wise.... that may
have existed for this incident.

otn




"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:

BG Limited maybe so. But you still don't understand why they
put those examples of
RAM boats in that rule. I'll tell you so listen. Here's a Q tip. Get
that wax outta your ears. Wipe that smirk off your face. I'm not ready
to give up on you yet.
They put those examples in there so everybody would be able to
understand what's meant
by *severe* and *unable*. They are defining those words. They're
examples of what the rule says. Mind pictures. You could think of
other examples. That's why they said not limited to. But any other
examples you think of have to be similar. IOW just as severe and just
as unable.
Your example isn't anyway near it. It's totally NOT similar. It's
a joke. Well intended but
*severely unable* to make your point. :-))))))
BFG I proved you made a mistake. Why not be a man and admit it?
I'm amazed you can be
driving big ships around without fully understanding simple rules.
Even when the rule's written so any old retard can understand it.
Even when I tell you twice why they put the examples in there. Duh!
(You and Jeff brothers?)
Cri-men-ny, otn your hopeless/you really are. Typical bull headed
man..... Stubborn ,obstinate,
self-righteous! Oh! And smug. I'd like to smack ya. BBG (that's
big blonde grin)

Cheers,
Ellen