Walt wrote:

Dave wrote:
You carry a real inferiority chip around on your shoulder, don't you
Walt.

Perhaps. If you read Bart's post, he describes going on to one of these
tourist boats, busting them for having an inauthentic dinghy, implying
that they cleat their halyards on the "wrong" side, and calling the crew
not particularly good sailors. If you behave like this, the crew is
not going to want to talk to you. You don't need to read all of Dale
Carnagie's books to realize that.

Now, I don't know Bart well enough to know whether he actually is a
pompous know-it-all blowhard, but from his description he seemed to be
acting like one. Do you disagree?

BTW, I am perfectly capable of acting like a pompous know-it-all
blowhard myself at times. So I know one when I see one. (c:

Walt,

A big part of sailing is unbiased, frank, open discussions of how
people interrelate on board. Take a bunch of people and stick them
on a boat together and you will have friction, pecking, leadership,
follower-ship, and teamwork--all these are things skippers need to
understand to keep things calm, greased, smooth and efficient.

You can look at the people in the group as part of a crew on an
imaginary
voyage. Some want to declare they are the "leaders". Some want to
be a captain so bad they award themselves the title that others have
earned through time and hard work. Many, like me, don't give a damn
about pecking order, because it really doesn't matter. These are the
mature ones in our group.

Those that know me, will be quick to acknowledge that I freely admit
my mistakes--I don't cover them up. Because I specifically don't want
to
come off as arrogant, I talk about things that I screw up. Few others
post
such things in here--while I know for a fact I'm not alone in this
regard.
This is how we all can learn and improve our skills.

If I step over the line, and I have, I apologize sincerely. In this
forum, it is
easy to get angry and write things we later regret. We need to
remember
who we are, and how to behave with dignity. I'm pretty careful about
what
I write. In this instance I stand by everything I've said.

I don't think I know everything, but I'd like to. Teach me something I
don't
know, I'll be grateful, because long ago I set a goal of trying to
learn
everything I can about sailing. Check back and you will see only one
other active poster has been with this group longer than I. Jon and I
have
been posting here for ten years. That is why I hate to see discussions
turn
into name calling.

Years ago I started posting questions and awarding points for correct
answers.
The chief purpose was to keep the group on sailing topics so that the
losers
posting in here don't ruin the purpose of the group by burying it in
noise.

So let's continue this conversation about non-profit tallship crews:

In each case I introduced myself and gave a short bit on my background
to let them know I worked in the industry before striking up a
conversation.
I do know a bit about sailing, and I also have a keen desire to learn
more.

the inflatable dinghy. I was subdued about my comment to one or
two crew members, it is not like I was nasty about it. I did not yell
it out.
It was repeated to others in the crew, and many took offense. Why
should
they take offense if it was true? An inflatable RIB didn't fit with
the period
look of the boat. Keep in mind this schooner used wooden blocks, tar,
and
natural fiber cordage--nothing state of the art on the vessel--except
the RIB.

A sweet looking rowing tender would have really made the boat perfect,
IMHO.
Why didn't my complements on the boat get repeated? People focus on
the
negative--that is their problem--not mine. These people in particular,
were
about as lame as could be--a bunch of whining babies who prefer to
whisper
than to confront. Real sailors aren't lame in their attitudes or
actions.

Rigging, I didn't imply anything. This was a completely different
boat.
I asked about how the boats were rigged because there were rigging
conventions I wanted to learn. You might have characterized those
sailor
as snobs, as unlike most sailors I know--they didn't want to talk about
sailing.
I received a surly, terse answer and then I was ignored. Perhaps they
were
just tired of dealing with the public and off duty--I can understand
that. Still
there is no need to be rude.

I learned my lesson. I now seek out the master of the vessel--he is the
one
with the most knowledge, class, and presence. He more likely enjoys
talking
about his vessel. I've had good success with this method.

Lets take your last point. You imply I told them directly I thought
they were
poor sailors. I didn't. I would never say such a thing, rather than
do that I
would try to teach them if I saw something glaringly obvious. These are
the
type of people I'd be most likely to invite small boat sailing. I've
done this
in the past and found that these inexperienced sailors were thrilled at
the small boat experience and enmjoyed the opportunity to steer the
boat
themselves because this was one aspect where they didn't get enough
exposure.

Go take a look at the volunteer crews on these boats and you tell me
if they are good sailors or not. Most have zero experience except on
the vessel they are on, and not many days at that. Further, they are
penned into several menial jobs which do not promote their learning.

I'm not saying they are bad people, or stupid. I would certainly
consider
doing something of that nature if I were younger--despite the low pay,
for
the adventure of it.

Still, I stand by my statements--specifically that on volunteer
non-profit
vessels like these, the crews are, in general, inexperienced sailors.
You
get what you pay for. Free labor means low skill levels. This is what
I'm
saying to you--not what I said or implied--to them. I was polite, calm

and respectful to them.

On tall ships this has been true for hundreds of years. You start
out on a tall ship as a landsman--pressed by a shore gang, and work
your way to able seaman, and then topmastman, and then afterguard.
Brute force inexperienced labor is a big part of tall-ships where large

crews are the norm.

People who start out as sailors on schooners have big holes in their
knowledge--most readily displayed when they sail small boats. They
don't realize that their skill set is much more limited. I'd prefer a
sailor
with a solid small boat background over one with only sea-time on big
schooners. You won't learn much sailing 800 miles on one tack.

Big boats are foregiving. Small boats are not, and with smaller crews,

crews learn more, and make better sailors--because they have more to
do. Many sailors who started on big boats think they are great sailors

are really only average because they don't know how to react when
things
get out of control--while small boat sailors always know what to do.

I talk about boats without political correctness. If a boat has lee
helm,
I'll talk about how the rig can be changed--what can be done to fix
that
very negative tendency. If it's your boat that has poor sailing
quality, I'll
try not to offend, but I won't nod and say it's just fine, when it
isn't.

Lots of things are written in this forum, you might resent. If so make

your point. Be sure to back it up with "quotes" of what you are
referencing.
Don't twist around what someone said out of context to support your
point
--use quotes and edit out all but what you want to debate.

One final thing Walt. I'll tell you what impresses me in this group.
Those people that bring up sailing topics of interest that cause
quality debate and shared knowledge. You don't strike me as a name
caller;
rather a potential major contributor--you have demonstrated the
knowledge.
I hope you will be an active contributor for many years, and I hope we
get a
chance to sail together someday.

Bart