more ROW questions....
 

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege? Would he be
considered a RAM? Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape? Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?
Is there penalties for near misses?


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

more ROW questions....
 

Scotty wrote:
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege? Would he be
considered a RAM?

Yes

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Tech..yes

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

no, not if you did not futher restrict his ability

Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

Flip him off.

Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

more ROW questions....
 

"Scotty" wrote
| Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

No!


| Would he be
| considered a RAM? Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
| shape? Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
| wrong to do so?

No, no, no....


Sailboats are the stand-on vessel in crossing situations with powerboats. One little power boat towing another isn't a RAM. The
rule is for big ships tugs and barges. It's not meant for small recreational power boats.

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

no, not if you did not futher restrict his ability

Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

Flip him off.


I mooned him.

more ROW questions....
 

"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel is not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not be displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn like a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no.... ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul.... expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking
to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly
up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did
I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily


I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure. I would have gybed
away had he not cursed at me from the get go.




Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down


I would imagine he wouldn't want to slow down , seeing as
how short the 'tow rope' ( dockline?) was., but he certainly
could have steered a few degrees to port.




Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Ample time in my mind, maybe not his?



Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey the
normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM is
not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be any
number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul.... expect
a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and the
turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn


Thanks, otn.

SBV

more ROW questions....
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

Scotty wrote:
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege? Would he be
considered a RAM?

Yes

Yes, but....

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Tech..yes

Not just technically... how is one supposed to know? You have to tell people
about your inability to maneauver.

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

no, not if you did not futher restrict his ability

Exactly.

Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

Flip him off.

Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Yup, but doubtful there would be penalties... they would tell the crosser
not to do that again.

more ROW questions....
 

Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late, but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel is not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not be displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn like a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no.... ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul.... expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

"Scotty" wrote
| I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure. I would have gybed
| away had he not cursed at me from the get go.



I wonder why your making a big deal out of this. Your sailboat is the stand-on vessel. Recreational small power
boats towing another power boat because it's broke down or something isn't *work*. The nature of *work* is what
makes a RAM. The rule talks about the nature of the work. So they don't have any standing in the rules. They're not
RAM, they're not entitled to special treatment. If they know the rules then they still have to follow the power boat
rules. You didn't do anything wrong.
Don't let power boat people push you around. Most of them know nothing about the rules. Where did they get the
idea that towing their friend who broke down gives them special rights? Does that mean a boat towing a knee boarder
has special rights? Duh! What about when your tow your dinghy behind. Does that give you special rights? Double Duh!
I'm afraid this otn is wrong. He's mostly right but a little wrong.

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or tack, ,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in their way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message

25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say above. But it's got
to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a fellow power boater who broke down or ran
out of gas isn't part of the definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this way. What if I decided to
do a little dredging. I put something that dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout.
I stop somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The work's not legal
so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

G Keep studying



"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your
wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say
above. But it's got to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a
fellow power boater who broke down or ran out of gas isn't part of the
definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this
way. What if I decided to do a little dredging. I put something that
dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout. I stop
somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The
work's not legal so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to
figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

"Scotty" wrote in
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking
to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly
up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did
I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily


I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure. I would have gybed
away had he not cursed at me from the get go.




Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down


I would imagine he wouldn't want to slow down , seeing as
how short the 'tow rope' ( dockline?) was., but he certainly
could have steered a few degrees to port.

If you're in a river and stemming a tide/river current, then slowing down
is a possibility


Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Ample time in my mind, maybe not his?

G Always a problem. Judgement calls are just that..... what may be clear
to you may not be clear to me and vice versa.

otn

more ROW questions....
 

Sounds like you did the right thing. Giving them the finger is about right
also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or tack, ,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in their way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message

25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

It helps when studying the colregs to learn how to read first.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...

G Keep studying



"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your
wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say
above. But it's got to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a
fellow power boater who broke down or ran out of gas isn't part of the
definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this
way. What if I decided to do a little dredging. I put something that
dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout. I stop
somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The
work's not legal so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to
figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

"otnmbrd" wrote
| G Keep studying


Of course but please read this:

(g) The term 'vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre' means a vessel which from the *nature of her work*
is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the
way of another vessel. The term 'vessel restricted in their ability to manoeuvre' shall include but not limited to:
(i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their
ability to deviate from their course.

Now, does it make sense to tell Scotty what you did? You said the little powerboat towing the other could
be a RAM. You are WRONG! There's no *nature of her work*. As long as the powerboat that's towing can maneuver
OK then it's not RAM. All it had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take it out of gear
or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke. Saying a little power pleasure boat that's towing
another *severely* restricts its ability to deviate from course is nonsense. You've got to agree. If you
don't then your thinking is too weird.... It scares me to think people like you drive big ships. (sigh)
Still another thing. Scotty isn't answering. He knows more about trucks than boats anyway. So I'll ask you
what I asked him. What's the difference between one little power boat towing a broken down little power boat
and a powerboat like a trawler towing its dinghy? You wouldn't dare claim the trawler was RAM. It can maneuver
just fine. It might not *want* to slow down fast. The dinghy might smack into the transom. But it *can* slow down
fast. It's capable in other words. So can the powerboat towing another little powerboat. Doesn't that show how
silly your claim is?

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

"Capt. JG" wrote
| It helps when studying the colregs to learn how to read first.



The voice of experience?

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

Nothings changed I see..... you're arguments are still based on a narrow,
self serving interpretation of events and the Rules


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| G Keep studying


Now, does it make sense to tell Scotty what you did? You said
the little powerboat towing the other could
be a RAM. You are WRONG! There's no *nature of her work*.

Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her work* was towing the
other vessel.

As long as
the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's not RAM.

True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to realize I said
that.

All it
had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take
it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on
it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.

I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I don't know the
state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current; wind; handling
characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of the towing
vessel and operator; etc.....

Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means
serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke.

Show me where it says that.

Saying a
little power pleasure boat that's towing another *severely* restricts
its ability to deviate from course is nonsense. You've got to agree.
If you don't then your thinking is too weird.... It scares me to
think people like you drive big ships. (sigh)

G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and your above first
sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree that this is
always the case.

Still another thing. Scotty isn't answering. He knows more about
trucks than boats anyway. So I'll ask you
what I asked him. What's the difference between one little power boat
towing a broken down little power boat and a powerboat like a trawler
towing its dinghy? You wouldn't dare claim the trawler was RAM. It can
maneuver just fine. It might not *want* to slow down fast. The dinghy
might smack into the transom. But it *can* slow down fast. It's
capable in other words. So can the powerboat towing another little
powerboat. Doesn't that show how silly your claim is?

The fact that you've asked this series of stupid questions just adds to
my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly inexperienced amateur with
limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

VBG
otn

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

Scotty wrote:
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

No, not unless they asked for it.

Would he be considered a RAM?

Not unless they so claimed. Even then, if there was an incident, they
would have to prove they really were RAM.

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Yes, or a suitable substitute. Unfortunately, in the dark, there's no
easy way for small boats to convey the nature of this situation.

Many, if not most, recreational boaters make the assumption that if
they're doing something special, like towing, they magically have
right of way and everyone has to stay clear. The truth is they have
not such rights, though you should stay clear because they are
probably incompetent. The other assumption they make is that everyone
can clearly understand what is going on, even its dark and they have
no lights.

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

No, they were wrong to assume you would understand their situation.
The fact that you didn't realize it was a tow until after the fact, is
a good indication they did not adequately convey the situation. If
you cleared with over 100 feet and they did not have to alter course
or speed, you were not too close.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

Unless they declare RAM, you are standon. And a real towboat would
have the means to do so.

Is there penalties for near misses?

Not typically. The ColRegs themselves don't specify any punishment,
so it would have to be under some other law.

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe

On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses. The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist. The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.

more ROW questions....
 

I was about to but thought maybe I better not, you never
know what some creep might do to your boat when you're away
and it's in the slip. This happened right near my marina.

I did however flip off some stupid jerks who were trolling
and cut right across my intended path and then yelled that
they had lines in the water. I heard some big time cussing,
then a loud SNAP! , and more cussing. I gave the finger and
kept on sailing :o

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Sounds like you did the right thing. Giving them the
finger is about right
also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or tack,
,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in their
way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message


25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting'
next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an
angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of
them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling
lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a
NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard
something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were
both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his
course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel
is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not
be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn
like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance,
no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real'
towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn,
but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to
obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and
RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered
or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a
report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

What is ones status while hove-to? I guess you should
always try to hove-to on starboard tack?

What would your status be , while single handing, drifting,
up at the bow pulling down your jib?

Scotty



"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com..
..

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG
involved.

Joe

On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was
nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the
skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several
times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on
course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses.
The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist.
The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action
unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post
it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

"Chuckles Morgan" wrote

Bart's just ****ed because the Aurora has lazy jacks from
Wal Mart.

Chuckles the Clown

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 22 Oct 2006 19:50:56 -0700, "Bart" wrote:

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?
can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe
On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses. The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist. The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.

Bart's just ****ed because the Aurora has lazy jacks rather than that goofy,
"Dutchboy" system. They sure wouldn't want black stripes and chafe from cheap
plastic fishing lines ruining THOSE sails!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cruadin...7594283171391/

CWM
Day-glo orange sails????? tacky......

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:49:00 -0400, katy
wrote:

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 22 Oct 2006 19:50:56 -0700, "Bart" wrote:

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?
can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe
On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses. The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist. The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.
Bart's just ****ed because the Aurora has lazy jacks rather than that goofy,
"Dutchboy" system. They sure wouldn't want black stripes and chafe from cheap
plastic fishing lines ruining THOSE sails!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cruadin...7594283171391/

CWM
Day-glo orange sails????? tacky......

They are not day glow orange, Katy. Oxblood dyed sails are very
traditional.

CWM

Looks like dayglo in the picture...have seen lots of tanbark sails but
never any that shade...

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Scotty wrote:
What is ones status while hove-to? I guess you should
always try to hove-to on starboard tack?

No special rights. This is why it is preferable to heave-to
onto starboard tack.

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Bart wrote:
Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe

On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on course.


http://www.slingking.com/launcher.html

Joe






I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses. The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist. The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.

more ROW questions....
 

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her work* was towing the
| other vessel.


That's a hoot. You say *I* have a narrow interpretation. Instead your the one.
You only use half the rule. The whole rule says nature of her work that *severely *
limits her maneuverability. 1) pleasure boat towing isn't *work* . The examples in the
rule make that clear. 2) You can't take one part of the rule and ignore the other. It's
doing that that's narrow... You keep ignoring the severely limited maneuverability part.

| As long as
| the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's not RAM.
|
| True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to realize I said
| that.

I said you were part right and part wrong. Again, it's because your
using half the rule and half doesn't get the job done....

| All it
| had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take
| it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on
| it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
|
| I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I don't know the
| state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current; wind; handling
| characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of the towing
| vessel and operator; etc.....

But you do know the rule (or claim you do). It's plain and black and white.
Why do you insist on making something out of it that's not there? Why do you
only use half of it? Why do you ignore the *severely* limits maneuverability part?
The little pleasure boat is not severely limited. It has all it's controls. It has all
the maneuverability it ever has. Tide, current, wind make no difference. The only
thing that's different is a rope over the transom. It might take a little extra time
to turn or stop but that's not *severe.* So stop ignoring the severe part of the rule,
please.

| Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means
| serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
| on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke.
|
| Show me where it says that.

Duh, the examples say that. All of them are serious work. None of them are
pleasure craft out playing. If the rule was for pleasure craft one would have been
put in the examples. If you go to a dinner party that's "formal attire required" you don't
show up in sneaker and a t-shirt and expect to get in. If you read a rule that's all about
serious work you don't expect playing to be part of it.
Your trouble is your trying to hedge your bets. You won't say the rule says X. Instead
you say the rules says X, Y, Z and sometimes A,B,C. Duh! Read the rule and understand
what it says. Stop adding your own stuff so you can have an *out* every time.
Maybe you should argue with my instructor Captain Donna Kirby, She's been teaching
the rules for years and years. She knows them better than you and she says two little
recreational boats towing each other are not RAM. How does she know? Because it's
consensus. Your wrong.

| G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and your above first
| sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree that this is
| always the case.

Too much wiggle room makes a fact a fiction....

|| The fact that you've asked this series of stupid questions just adds to
| my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly inexperienced amateur with
| limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

And, your a typical man who wouldn't admit he was wrong to stick his ass out
of the fox hole even when the bullet make him a second asshole.... Or, in your case
a third. :-)

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

Thank you Jeff for giving the right answers. I hope otn reads your post.
I've been arguing with him. I've proved he's wrong but he won't be a man
and admit it. Like you say. Scotty's little pleasure boats towing each other are
not RAM according to the rule. That's what I said too. That's what my instructor
says.
You made my day....

Cheers,
Ellen





"Jeff" wrote in message . ..
| Scotty wrote:
| Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
| wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
| starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
| each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
| each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
| river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
| figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
| rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
| Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
| the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
| my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
| going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
| never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
| see the small towing line between them.
|
| Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?
|
| No, not unless they asked for it.
|
| Would he be considered a RAM?
|
| Not unless they so claimed. Even then, if there was an incident, they
| would have to prove they really were RAM.
|
| Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
| shape?
|
| Yes, or a suitable substitute. Unfortunately, in the dark, there's no
| easy way for small boats to convey the nature of this situation.
|
| Many, if not most, recreational boaters make the assumption that if
| they're doing something special, like towing, they magically have
| right of way and everyone has to stay clear. The truth is they have
| not such rights, though you should stay clear because they are
| probably incompetent. The other assumption they make is that everyone
| can clearly understand what is going on, even its dark and they have
| no lights.
|
| Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
| wrong to do so?
|
| No, they were wrong to assume you would understand their situation.
| The fact that you didn't realize it was a tow until after the fact, is
| a good indication they did not adequately convey the situation. If
| you cleared with over 100 feet and they did not have to alter course
| or speed, you were not too close.
|
|
| Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
| someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
| collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
| the crossing boat?
|
| Unless they declare RAM, you are standon. And a real towboat would
| have the means to do so.
|
| Is there penalties for near misses?
|
| Not typically. The ColRegs themselves don't specify any punishment,
| so it would have to be under some other law.

more ROW questions....
 

G Interesting....somehow because it's a "pleasure boat" towing, it can't
be *severely* limited in it's ability to deviate from it's course.

otn

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her work* was towing
the
| other vessel.


That's a hoot. You say *I* have a narrow interpretation. Instead your
the one.
You only use half the rule. The whole rule says nature of her work that
*severely *
limits her maneuverability. 1) pleasure boat towing isn't *work* . The
examples in the
rule make that clear. 2) You can't take one part of the rule and ignore
the other. It's
doing that that's narrow... You keep ignoring the severely limited
maneuverability part.

| As long as
| the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's not RAM.
|
| True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to realize I said
| that.

I said you were part right and part wrong. Again, it's because your
using half the rule and half doesn't get the job done....

| All it
| had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take
| it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on
| it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
|
| I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I don't know the
| state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current; wind; handling
| characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of the towing
| vessel and operator; etc.....

But you do know the rule (or claim you do). It's plain and black and
white.
Why do you insist on making something out of it that's not there? Why do
you
only use half of it? Why do you ignore the *severely* limits
maneuverability part?
The little pleasure boat is not severely limited. It has all it's
controls. It has all
the maneuverability it ever has. Tide, current, wind make no difference.
The only
thing that's different is a rope over the transom. It might take a little
extra time
to turn or stop but that's not *severe.* So stop ignoring the severe part
of the rule,
please.

| Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means
| serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
| on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke.
|
| Show me where it says that.

Duh, the examples say that. All of them are serious work. None of them
are
pleasure craft out playing. If the rule was for pleasure craft one would
have been
put in the examples. If you go to a dinner party that's "formal attire
required" you don't
show up in sneaker and a t-shirt and expect to get in. If you read a rule
that's all about
serious work you don't expect playing to be part of it.
Your trouble is your trying to hedge your bets. You won't say the rule
says X. Instead
you say the rules says X, Y, Z and sometimes A,B,C. Duh! Read the rule and
understand
what it says. Stop adding your own stuff so you can have an *out* every
time.
Maybe you should argue with my instructor Captain Donna Kirby, She's
been teaching
the rules for years and years. She knows them better than you and she says
two little
recreational boats towing each other are not RAM. How does she know?
Because it's
consensus. Your wrong.

| G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and your above first
| sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree that this is
| always the case.

Too much wiggle room makes a fact a fiction....

|| The fact that you've asked this series of stupid questions just adds to
| my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly inexperienced amateur with
| limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

And, your a typical man who wouldn't admit he was wrong to stick his
ass out
of the fox hole even when the bullet make him a second asshole.... Or, in
your case
a third. :-)

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

That's what the USSailing instructors teach re hove-to. Start on port, end
up on starboard.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
What is ones status while hove-to? I guess you should
always try to hove-to on starboard tack?

What would your status be , while single handing, drifting,
up at the bow pulling down your jib?

Scotty



"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com..
.

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG
involved.

Joe

On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was
nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the
skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several
times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on
course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses.
The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist.
The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action
unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post
it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.

more ROW questions....
 

Sort of the same philosophy in the marina here. Some guy sailed into his
slip... no problem there, but didn't bother to tie up the boat. Just went
below, the neighbors heard some cussing, then silence, the boat staying in
place as it was a downwind slip. Finally, his neighbors just tied up the
boat for him. They didn't drop his sails for him, however.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
I was about to but thought maybe I better not, you never
know what some creep might do to your boat when you're away
and it's in the slip. This happened right near my marina.

I did however flip off some stupid jerks who were trolling
and cut right across my intended path and then yelled that
they had lines in the water. I heard some big time cussing,
then a loud SNAP! , and more cussing. I gave the finger and
kept on sailing :o

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Sounds like you did the right thing. Giving them the
finger is about right
also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or tack,
,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in their
way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message


25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting'
next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an
angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of
them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling
lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a
NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard
something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were
both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his
course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel
is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not
be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn
like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance,
no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real'
towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn,
but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to
obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and
RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered
or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a
report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message link.net...
| G Interesting....somehow because it's a "pleasure boat" towing, it can't
| be *severely* limited in it's ability to deviate from it's course.
|
| otn


I'm not saying *can't*. But in Scotty's case. The way he described it the
tow boat wasn't severely limited in maneuverability. It was going along just
fine towing the other guy. Even hollering and cursing (probably half drunk).
He wouldn't be doing that if he was severely limited in maneuverability. Pleasure
boat's got to do with work. Pleasure boats by definition don't engage in work.
If they did they'd be work boats. Duh!

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

Sounds like he had to pee real bad, then the seat dropped on
him?

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Sort of the same philosophy in the marina here. Some guy
sailed into his
slip... no problem there, but didn't bother to tie up the
boat. Just went
below, the neighbors heard some cussing, then silence, the
boat staying in
place as it was a downwind slip. Finally, his neighbors
just tied up the
boat for him. They didn't drop his sails for him, however.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
I was about to but thought maybe I better not, you never
know what some creep might do to your boat when you're
away
and it's in the slip. This happened right near my
marina.

I did however flip off some stupid jerks who were
trolling
and cut right across my intended path and then yelled
that
they had lines in the water. I heard some big time
cussing,
then a loud SNAP! , and more cussing. I gave the finger
and
kept on sailing :o

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Sounds like you did the right thing. Giving them the
finger is about right
also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or
tack,
,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in
their
way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit
late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message



25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
:

Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off
my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting'
next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an
angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of
them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling
lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a
NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard
something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we
were
both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they
passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his
course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a
vessel
is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not
normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need
not
be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn
like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I
still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance,
no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real'
towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to
turn,
but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should
be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to
obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM
(and
RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can
be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your
maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no
foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal"
and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision
endangered
or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a
report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or
not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

more ROW questions....
 

The little blonde does have some good points!

Scotty


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her
work* was towing the
| other vessel.


That's a hoot. You say *I* have a narrow
interpretation. Instead your the one.
You only use half the rule. The whole rule says nature of
her work that *severely *
limits her maneuverability. 1) pleasure boat towing isn't
*work* . The examples in the
rule make that clear. 2) You can't take one part of the
rule and ignore the other. It's
doing that that's narrow... You keep ignoring the severely
limited maneuverability part.

| As long as
| the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's
not RAM.
|
| True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to
realize I said
| that.

I said you were part right and part wrong. Again,
it's because your
using half the rule and half doesn't get the job done....

| All it
| had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to
throttle down or take
| it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It
had no rule on
| it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
|
| I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I
don't know the
| state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current;
wind; handling
| characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of
the towing
| vessel and operator; etc.....

But you do know the rule (or claim you do). It's
plain and black and white.
Why do you insist on making something out of it that's not
there? Why do you
only use half of it? Why do you ignore the *severely*
limits maneuverability part?
The little pleasure boat is not severely limited. It has
all it's controls. It has all
the maneuverability it ever has. Tide, current, wind make
no difference. The only
thing that's different is a rope over the transom. It
might take a little extra time
to turn or stop but that's not *severe.* So stop ignoring
the severe part of the rule,
please.

| Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi)
that work means
| serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
| on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor
broke.
|
| Show me where it says that.

Duh, the examples say that. All of them are serious
work. None of them are
pleasure craft out playing. If the rule was for pleasure
craft one would have been
put in the examples. If you go to a dinner party that's
"formal attire required" you don't
show up in sneaker and a t-shirt and expect to get in. If
you read a rule that's all about
serious work you don't expect playing to be part of it.
Your trouble is your trying to hedge your bets. You
won't say the rule says X. Instead
you say the rules says X, Y, Z and sometimes A,B,C. Duh!
Read the rule and understand
what it says. Stop adding your own stuff so you can have
an *out* every time.
Maybe you should argue with my instructor Captain
Donna Kirby, She's been teaching
the rules for years and years. She knows them better than
you and she says two little
recreational boats towing each other are not RAM. How does
she know? Because it's
consensus. Your wrong.

| G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and
your above first
| sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree
that this is
| always the case.

Too much wiggle room makes a fact a fiction....

|| The fact that you've asked this series of stupid
questions just adds to
| my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly
inexperienced amateur with
| limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

And, your a typical man who wouldn't admit he was
wrong to stick his ass out
of the fox hole even when the bullet make him a second
asshole.... Or, in your case
a third. :-)

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

You're running in circles. OK, now you say a pleasure boat towing can be
RAM.
Whether or not the one in Scotty's case was or wasn't would be up to him
and/or the other boater to decide since we weren't there and can't know
all the variables.
As for them showing signals.... I seriously doubt many if any small
pleasure boats are equipped with extra ball and diamond shapes or the
necessary lights to signal this so it will generally end up as being
necessary for them to use other means to convey their situation which
will also include your own evaluation which sends us to my favorite
rule....Rule 2.

otn


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
link.net...
| G Interesting....somehow because it's a "pleasure boat" towing, it
| can't be *severely* limited in it's ability to deviate from it's
| course.
|
| otn


I'm not saying *can't*. But in Scotty's case. The way he
described it the
tow boat wasn't severely limited in maneuverability. It was going
along just fine towing the other guy. Even hollering and cursing
(probably half drunk). He wouldn't be doing that if he was severely
limited in maneuverability. Pleasure boat's got to do with work.
Pleasure boats by definition don't engage in work. If they did they'd
be work boats. Duh!

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....
 

You mean Neal?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
The little blonde does have some good points!

Scotty


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her
work* was towing the
| other vessel.


That's a hoot. You say *I* have a narrow
interpretation. Instead your the one.
You only use half the rule. The whole rule says nature of
her work that *severely *
limits her maneuverability. 1) pleasure boat towing isn't
*work* . The examples in the
rule make that clear. 2) You can't take one part of the
rule and ignore the other. It's
doing that that's narrow... You keep ignoring the severely
limited maneuverability part.

| As long as
| the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's
not RAM.
|
| True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to
realize I said
| that.

I said you were part right and part wrong. Again,
it's because your
using half the rule and half doesn't get the job done....

| All it
| had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to
throttle down or take
| it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It
had no rule on
| it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
|
| I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I
don't know the
| state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current;
wind; handling
| characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of
the towing
| vessel and operator; etc.....

But you do know the rule (or claim you do). It's
plain and black and white.
Why do you insist on making something out of it that's not
there? Why do you
only use half of it? Why do you ignore the *severely*
limits maneuverability part?
The little pleasure boat is not severely limited. It has
all it's controls. It has all
the maneuverability it ever has. Tide, current, wind make
no difference. The only
thing that's different is a rope over the transom. It
might take a little extra time
to turn or stop but that's not *severe.* So stop ignoring
the severe part of the rule,
please.

| Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi)
that work means
| serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
| on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor
broke.
|
| Show me where it says that.

Duh, the examples say that. All of them are serious
work. None of them are
pleasure craft out playing. If the rule was for pleasure
craft one would have been
put in the examples. If you go to a dinner party that's
"formal attire required" you don't
show up in sneaker and a t-shirt and expect to get in. If
you read a rule that's all about
serious work you don't expect playing to be part of it.
Your trouble is your trying to hedge your bets. You
won't say the rule says X. Instead
you say the rules says X, Y, Z and sometimes A,B,C. Duh!
Read the rule and understand
what it says. Stop adding your own stuff so you can have
an *out* every time.
Maybe you should argue with my instructor Captain
Donna Kirby, She's been teaching
the rules for years and years. She knows them better than
you and she says two little
recreational boats towing each other are not RAM. How does
she know? Because it's
consensus. Your wrong.

| G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and
your above first
| sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree
that this is
| always the case.

Too much wiggle room makes a fact a fiction....

|| The fact that you've asked this series of stupid
questions just adds to
| my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly
inexperienced amateur with
| limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

And, your a typical man who wouldn't admit he was
wrong to stick his ass out
of the fox hole even when the bullet make him a second
asshole.... Or, in your case
a third. :-)

Cheers,
Ellen

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

Capt. JG wrote:

That's what the USSailing instructors teach re hove-to. Start on port, end
up on starboard.


Really? They teach you to tack as part of heaving to? Why is this
necessary?

//Walt

more ROW questions....near misses Schooner Aurora
 

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:

That's what the USSailing instructors teach re hove-to.
Start on port, end
up on starboard.


Really? They teach you to tack as part of heaving to?
Why is this
necessary?


You don't?

SBV

more ROW questions....
 

No, Ellen. http://www.badongo.com/pic/291317

SBV


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
You mean Neal?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
The little blonde does have some good points!

Scotty


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message

reenews.ne
t...

"otnmbrd" wrote
| Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her
work* was towing the
| other vessel.


That's a hoot. You say *I* have a narrow
interpretation. Instead your the one.
You only use half the rule. The whole rule says nature
of
her work that *severely *
limits her maneuverability. 1) pleasure boat towing
isn't
*work* . The examples in the
rule make that clear. 2) You can't take one part of the
rule and ignore the other. It's
doing that that's narrow... You keep ignoring the
severely
limited maneuverability part.

| As long as
| the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then
it's
not RAM.
|
| True, but even you have enough reading comprehension
to
realize I said
| that.

I said you were part right and part wrong. Again,
it's because your
using half the rule and half doesn't get the job
done....

| All it
| had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to
throttle down or take
| it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It
had no rule on
| it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
|
| I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like;
I
don't know the
| state of the tide; direction and/or strength of
current;
wind; handling
| characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities
of
the towing
| vessel and operator; etc.....

But you do know the rule (or claim you do). It's
plain and black and white.
Why do you insist on making something out of it that's
not
there? Why do you
only use half of it? Why do you ignore the *severely*
limits maneuverability part?
The little pleasure boat is not severely limited. It
has
all it's controls. It has all
the maneuverability it ever has. Tide, current, wind
make
no difference. The only
thing that's different is a rope over the transom. It
might take a little extra time
to turn or stop but that's not *severe.* So stop
ignoring
the severe part of the rule,
please.

| Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi)
that work means
| serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
| on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose
motor
broke.
|
| Show me where it says that.

Duh, the examples say that. All of them are
serious
work. None of them are
pleasure craft out playing. If the rule was for
pleasure
craft one would have been
put in the examples. If you go to a dinner party that's
"formal attire required" you don't
show up in sneaker and a t-shirt and expect to get in.
If
you read a rule that's all about
serious work you don't expect playing to be part of it.
Your trouble is your trying to hedge your bets. You
won't say the rule says X. Instead
you say the rules says X, Y, Z and sometimes A,B,C.
Duh!
Read the rule and understand
what it says. Stop adding your own stuff so you can
have
an *out* every time.
Maybe you should argue with my instructor Captain
Donna Kirby, She's been teaching
the rules for years and years. She knows them better
than
you and she says two little
recreational boats towing each other are not RAM. How
does
she know? Because it's
consensus. Your wrong.

| G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and
your above first
| sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't
agree
that this is
| always the case.

Too much wiggle room makes a fact a fiction....

|| The fact that you've asked this series of stupid
questions just adds to
| my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly
inexperienced amateur with
| limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

And, your a typical man who wouldn't admit he was
wrong to stick his ass out
of the fox hole even when the bullet make him a second
asshole.... Or, in your case
a third. :-)

Cheers,
Ellen