Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
side'? When are you on a port tack?"


| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
It was funny. I actually smiled.



| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.

I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
be his student?

When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?


| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

"Jeff" wrote in message

| Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
| thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

Oh. (face turns red)

| Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
| merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
| overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
| sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
| side'? When are you on a port tack?"

That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

| Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
| It was funny. I actually smiled.

Zing! Well, shut my mouth. It went right over my head. I just got this mental picture of him really
sailing backwards when instructing some students to show how it could be done. Somehow I don't
find Capt. JG very funny. Mean's more the word comes to mind.

| I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
| be his student?

When Hell freezes over. :-)

| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh. (face turns red)
you should post a picture


That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

But which side is the port side when you're going backwards?

....


| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

Read the International version of the Rule 34 carefully and try again.

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under 34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll usually respond
that I agree.



| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
change if you're going backwards?

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh. (face turns red)
you should post a picture


That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the
port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.






...


| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for
motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

Read the International version of the Rule 34 carefully
and try again.

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

Scotty

Scotty wrote:
But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.


Jeeze, people keep repeating the rules. I have a zillion copies of
the rules. The question is, when you're going backwards, does port
and starboard switch sides. Does the definition depend on the
direction of the motion, or the location of the bow?

....

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

depends on what I've had to eat.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Scotty wrote:
But which side is the port side when you're going
backwards?

#12, a , lll;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel
to
windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the
other vessel has the wind on the port or on the
starboard
side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.


Jeeze, people keep repeating the rules. I have a zillion
copies of
the rules. The question is, when you're going backwards,
does port
and starboard switch sides. Does the definition depend on
the
direction of the motion, or the location of the bow?

My thought was that it has to be the direction of motion,
otherwise it gets too confusing for the normal sailor. The
reason I copied rule lll, if you're approaching some goof
ball sailing backwards and can't figure out which tack he's
on, then ''she shall keep out of the way of the other.
''.



BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's
anything
that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under
34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll
usually respond
that I agree.


How do you respond?

depends on what I've had to eat.

Lets say Tuna.

Scotty

"Jeff" wrote
| Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
| change if you're going backwards?


No. Port and starboard is fixed. It's part of the boat. That's why there's a green light on the starboard side
and a red light on the port side. You have a right hand and you have a left hand. If you walk backwards your right
hand is still your right hand and your left hand is still your left hand.
Rule 34 says in the first sentence says "a power driven vessel underway." The second paragraph says
"the whistle signals prescribed in paragraph (a). It means prescribed for power driven vessels because that's
all they talk about in the first paragraph. Nowhere does it say a sailboat has to do whistle signals. It's only
talking about power boats.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...

"Jeff" wrote
| Its the same question as before - does the port and
starboard side
| change if you're going backwards?


No. Port and starboard is fixed. It's part of the
boat. That's why there's a green light on the starboard side
and a red light on the port side. You have a right hand
and you have a left hand. If you walk backwards your right
hand is still your right hand and your left hand is still
your left hand.


You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Scotty

Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd have said that port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but maybe craft like these
are exceptions.


--
Capt Scumbalino

Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Scotty wrote:

You've never seen those ferries that go back and forth
without turning around?

Do they have sets of nav lights for each direction? I'd have said that port
and starboard are fixed with respect to the bow, but maybe craft like these
are exceptions.


Yes, there are two sets of running lights, two helm stations, etc. I
rode on such a ferry a few weeks ago, between Woods Hole and Vineyard
Haven.