I think I'm going to do it and tell the CG that Ellen told me it was ok.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote


Say you were sailing backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on
your stern would see your stern light.


besides being really dumb, that would be illegal.

Scotty

You're dumb. Feel better?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| This is too dumb to even consider. Do you want to rethink your
question... I
| suggest it.


Your the one who's dumb... Not me!
I wouldn't have to rethink anything if you didn't lie. You said you
sailed backwards for about an
hour. You didn't sail backwards. You sailed forward. You were just slower
than the current you were
going into bow first. People on land who looked at you noticed it looked
like you were going backwards.
That doesn't mean you were *sailing* backwards. You lied or misspoke
so don't call me dumb....
If you were telling the truth you'd have to be actually sailing
backwards. You could do this if you put
a jib on the backstay. Then the stern of your boat would go through the
water first. That's why I asked
about the confusion this would cause to the colregs. Say you were sailing
backwards with a jib on your
backstay at night. Then a faster sailboat coming up on your stern would
see your stern light. He would
think he was overtaking you. He would think he had to give way. It would
look like he was overtaking you.
It would really be a meeting situation.
So don't dis me for being confused. Blame yourself for saying you
sailed backwards when you didn't
sail backwards at all. And you teach sailing? I bet your students are all
confused. I'd demand my money
back if I got you for an instructor. Your rude and your arrogant and you
confuse. You should clarify.
Jeff is a much better instructor. He thinks I'm dumb, too. But at
least he's got patience and explains
things. And *he* doesn't lie. He instructs because he wants people to know
how. You instruct so you can
gratify your big ego. I don't think you care about your students unless
your different to them than you
are to me. But, I doubt it very much.....


Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Capt. JG said he sailed backwards for an hour. If another sailboat was sailing directly
toward JGs transom would it be an overtaking situation? And would the other sailboat have
to give way. How would it know if JG was sailing backwards or just very slow forward.


You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back. From
the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
(And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
to be sailed backwards.

This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
get reversed? For large ships, the common practice is make passing
signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
you're on?

"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.
When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
side'? When are you on a port tack?"


| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
It was funny. I actually smiled.



| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.

I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
be his student?

When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?


| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

"Jeff" wrote in message

| Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
| thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

Oh. (face turns red)

| Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
| merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
| overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
| sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
| side'? When are you on a port tack?"

That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

| Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
| It was funny. I actually smiled.

Zing! Well, shut my mouth. It went right over my head. I just got this mental picture of him really
sailing backwards when instructing some students to show how it could be done. Somehow I don't
find Capt. JG very funny. Mean's more the word comes to mind.

| I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
| be his student?

When Hell freezes over. :-)

| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh. (face turns red)
you should post a picture


That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

But which side is the port side when you're going backwards?

....


| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only. Rule 34 says it.

Read the International version of the Rule 34 carefully and try again.

BTW, aside from this issue, I don't think there's anything that
prevents a sailboat from responding, especially under 34(a)(ii). If
I'm being passed by a ferry that gives me a toot, I'll usually respond
that I agree.



| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Its the same question as before - does the port and starboard side
change if you're going backwards?

Oh? That's it? So, then I must not have lied. Don't see any apology do we...
and, don't worry, you're not qualified to be my or anyone else's student.
You first need a brain...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Jeff" wrote in message

| Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or
| thought about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

Oh. (face turns red)

| Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
| merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered
| overtaken, what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the
| sailboat rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port
| side'? When are you on a port tack?"

That's easy. It's when the wind is *attacking* the port side of the
boat. The sail's on the
starboard side.

| Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke.
| It was funny. I actually smiled.

Zing! Well, shut my mouth. It went right over my head. I just got this
mental picture of him really
sailing backwards when instructing some students to show how it could be
done. Somehow I don't
find Capt. JG very funny. Mean's more the word comes to mind.

| I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to
| be his student?

When Hell freezes over. :-)

| Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

Yes, that's my final answer passing signals are for motor boats only.
Rule 34 says it.

| Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are
| together on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by
| backing the sail, are they on the same tack or different?

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question. :-(
That's a good question. I'd say neither. That's because the wind's
attacking the same side
of both of them so they're on the same tack. But doesn't the definition
also say the sail is supposed
to be on the opposite side? So the one going forward is on the port tack
and the one with the backed
sail's sorta halfway in between.

Cheers,
Ellen

She's very stressed out, obviously.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote | You seem to still be uncertain about how
current should be considered. | In Jon's case, he was making way through
the water forward, but the | current was pulling him (and your other
hypothetical boat) back. Then why did he lie and say he sailed
backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail
backwards. Please read my answer to his usual snooty comment.

Lied??? It was a joke, obvious to anyone who had ever sailed (or thought
about sailing) near the Golden Gate.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking |
situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking | Jon.
Even though its possible that they are going in opposite | directions
over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation. | (And, as
sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward
gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on.
If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an
overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern light it would
*appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read
it. I don't want to repeat it.

Wow, you really are wound up about this! I said it was overtaking. I
merely asked the rhetorical question, "if it isn't considered overtaken,
what rules would apply?" You don't have to restate all the sailboat
rules, the obvious question is "What is meant by the 'port side'? When
are you on a port tack?"

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots |
sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done |
this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were |
to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward.
His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

Actually, he never said what he meant, but everyone else got the joke. It
was funny. I actually smiled.



| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are |
maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules | get
reversed? Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would
rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides
of a question.

I'm not sure Jon feels obligated to be your teacher. Did you want to be
his student?

When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the
place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be
confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing | signals assuming
your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld | in the courts.
However, this it is also "special circumstances" | because
maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

Are you sure of that? Is this your final answer?

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack |
you're on?

Exactly!

Hey, I asked you, what do think the answer is? If two boats are together
on a broad reach, one normal, the other going backwards by backing the
sail, are they on the same tack or different?

"Jeff" wrote
| You seem to still be uncertain about how current should be considered.
| In Jon's case, he was making way through the water forward, but the
| current was pulling him (and your other hypothetical boat) back.

Then why did he lie and say he sailed backwards? I believed he WAS really sailing
backwards. I thought it was some lesson on how to actually sail backwards. Please read
my answer to his usual snooty comment.

| the perspective of the two boats, this is a simple overtaking
| situation - the boat moving through the water faster is overtaking
| Jon. Even though its possible that they are going in opposite
| directions over the bottom, this is not a head-on meeting situation.
| (And, as sailboats, that rule isn't used, what rule would apply?)

Sailboats use the starboard tack boat stands on rule. Or windward gives way if both are on the same tack.
Or, port tack gives way if he can't tell what tack the other boat's on. If it's night or fog or something.
But if he really was *sailing* backwards It wouldn't be an overtaking situation. At night looking at his stern
light it would *appear* to be overtaking. I explained all this in my post to him. Read it. I don't want to repeat it.

| The case I described was rather different: I was pointed into the wind
| while holding the boom tight to the mast, making several knots
| sternway and keeping fair control with the rudder. In fact I've done
| this many times, and we would have races where the downwind legs were
| to be sailed backwards.

Yes! THAT's sailing backwards. Capt. JG lied. He was sailing forward. His boat was going
over the bottom backwards but he wasn't *sailing* backwards.

| This raises the question that also comes up when large ship are
| maneuvering in a harbor. When you're making sternway, do the rules
| get reversed?

Exactly! That's why I asked question #6. But Capt. JG would rather dis me than try to understand.
That's why I think he's a poor teacher. Good teachers can see all sides of a question.
When your making sternway in a sailboat I think your stern takes the place of the bow. But, how
could you reposition your lights at night? You couldn't. So there'd be confusion. It would look
like overtaking when it wasn't.

|For large ships, the common practice is make passing
| signals assuming your stern is now the bow, and this has been upheld
| in the courts. However, this it is also "special circumstances"
| because maneuverability is greatly reduced.

Sailboats don't make passing signals.... not under the rules.

| But, for a small sailboat doing this, how do you tell which tack
| you're on?

Exactly!

Cheers,
Ellen