My seamanship question #1
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Joe" wrote -way vessel.
|
| You said 180 was "overtaking" the 280 vessel.

I did NOT say that. Look again, Joe. I said one sailboat was
catching up to the other. Since everybody seems clueless, I'll
give the answer. It's a crossing situation. Subtract the angles.
It has to be within a 22 and 1/2 degree angle of the centerline
to be overtaking. 208-180 = 28 degrees. Not overtaking.
Pay attention, Joe.

In a crossing situation the sailboat to windward must avoid the
other sailboat since they're both on the starboard tack.

This is FUN!

Cheers,
Ellen


Sorry, Ellen, you have that wrong. Its 22.5 degrees behind the beam,
not a difference in course. If the two boats have those headings it
could be either overtaking or converging, which would make it
crossing. However, since you stated "catching up" its hard to make
this into something that isn't overtaking.

My seamanship question #1
 

katy wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:41:44 -0700, "Joe" wrote:

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote

| That's not worth an ASA point.


How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you talked about one
of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the result fit the
definition of overtake?

Cheers,
Ellen
The vessel that is overtaking another vessel is the give-way vessel.

You said 180 was "overtaking" the 280 vessel.
End of story. Nothing else matters.

Joe

If the vessels have screwed the pooch to the point where they are truly about to
collide, it is the duty of both to do whatever is needed to avoid a collision.


CWM

I said that.....

You left out bob's classic "screwed the pooch" phrase.

Joe

My seamanship question #1
 

.... If they are
to converge "the direction from the beam of the vessel being
overtaken" must be less than 28 degrees.


It's also possible that they would converge from far enough
away that there is no clear ahead or clear astern. This is
defined in the racing rules but not (IIRC) the ColRegs.


Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Whether or not they converge is a function of their current positions, their
courses and their speeds. Have a look at my diagram linked to elsewhere. If
the red boat is doing 1kt, and the green one 100kts, then the green one will
be past the red one - will pass over the red boat's projected course - long
before the red boat gets to the same point.

The direction from the beam has nothing to do with convergence, but is a
means of defining whether the situation is an overtaking one.


Does it make any difference which one is to windward and
which one is to leeward? I can't believe you all have chewed
this over and nobody has realized that.

As I make it out, if the two are both on starboard tack, and
the faster one (catching up) is heading 180 and the other
208, then the one first one (catching up) will be to
windward as they converge. That gives the other boat a
double right of way!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

My seamanship question #1
 

Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:41:44 -0700, "Joe" wrote:

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote

| That's not worth an ASA point.


How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you talked about one
of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the result fit the
definition of overtake?

Cheers,
Ellen
The vessel that is overtaking another vessel is the give-way vessel.

You said 180 was "overtaking" the 280 vessel.
End of story. Nothing else matters.

Joe
If the vessels have screwed the pooch to the point where they are truly about to
collide, it is the duty of both to do whatever is needed to avoid a collision.

CWM
I said that.....

You left out bob's classic "screwed the pooch" phrase.

Joe

I'm not Bob...I don't need to resort to crudeness...smirk....meow....

My seamanship question #1
 

DSK wrote:
.... If they are
to converge "the direction from the beam of the vessel being
overtaken" must be less than 28 degrees.


It's also possible that they would converge from far enough away that
there is no clear ahead or clear astern. This is defined in the racing
rules but not (IIRC) the ColRegs.

It is covered - if it's converging instead of overtaking, then for
sailboats it becomes windward/leeward or port/starboard.

There is no "clear astern" or "overlap" in the ColRegs. The
"overtaking" relationship is established if a slower boat sees a
faster 22.5 degrees or more abaft the beam. After that, the
relationship is not changed until the fast boat is past and clear.





Capt. Scumbalino wrote:
Whether or not they converge is a function of their current positions,
their
courses and their speeds. Have a look at my diagram linked to
elsewhere. If
the red boat is doing 1kt, and the green one 100kts, then the green
one will
be past the red one - will pass over the red boat's projected course -
long
before the red boat gets to the same point.

The direction from the beam has nothing to do with convergence, but is a
means of defining whether the situation is an overtaking one.


Does it make any difference which one is to windward and which one is to
leeward? I can't believe you all have chewed this over and nobody has
realized that.

"Catching up" makes it hard to have this anything other than
overtaking. If you saw a boat slightly behind your beam (say 20
degrees) and slowly converging, would you call it "catching up"?
Remember, if it was ever more than 22.5 abaft the beam it's
overtaking. And, if there's any doubt, overtaking is assumed.


As I make it out, if the two are both on starboard tack, and the faster
one (catching up) is heading 180 and the other 208, then the one first
one (catching up) will be to windward as they converge. That gives the
other boat a double right of way!

Yes, if this is converging, the slower boat is to leeward and is still
standon.

My seamanship question #1
 

Well, true, but she did say catching up, and I took that to mean a possible
collision. The overtaken needs to hold his course. The one overtaking needs
to change course, slow down, whatever.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
How do you figure? If one boat is being overtaken, in this scenario,
that's pretty much the end of the story. Speed isn't an issue.

because if the speeds were such one could conceivably pass by the other
without any course adjustments being needed....

My seamanship question #1
 

Does it make any difference which one is to windward and which one is
to leeward? I can't believe you all have chewed this over and nobody
has realized that.


Jeff wrote:
"Catching up" makes it hard to have this anything other than
overtaking. If you saw a boat slightly behind your beam (say 20
degrees) and slowly converging, would you call it "catching up"?

No, *I* wouldn't but then I'm not the one trying to write a
tricky question.


Remember, if it was ever more than 22.5 abaft the beam it's overtaking.
And, if there's any doubt, overtaking is assumed.


Right, that's why the running lights are arranged the way
they are. Although I never heard a skipper say to a crew
"Take a transit off the running light blinder & tell me if
that other boat bears more or less that 22.5 degrees aft of
our beam." The phrase just doesn't have that nautical flair
to it.



As I make it out, if the two are both on starboard tack, and the
faster one (catching up) is heading 180 and the other 208, then the
one first one (catching up) will be to windward as they converge. That
gives the other boat a double right of way!


Yes, if this is converging, the slower boat is to leeward and is still
standon.

So what's the big deal? The boat "catching up" has to dodge
the other one, which is pretty much what everybody has said.
If "Ellen M" has any point-awarding authority then she
should give everybody some.

DSK

My seamanship question #1
 

The angles have nothing to do with it if it's an overtaking situation. Are
you going to be out there with a protractor measuring? If the first boat is
ahead of the other boat (doesn't have to be directly inline), that boat has
stand-on status as far as I'm concerned. The other boat is burdoned and must
not cause a collision. The boat being overtaken must hold course. The other
boat must give-way.

Joe is right. But it's too easy for a point. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote

| That's not worth an ASA point.


How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you talked
about one
of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the result
fit the
definition of overtake?

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #1
 

Absolutely.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On 12 Sep 2006 15:41:44 -0700, "Joe" wrote:


Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote

| That's not worth an ASA point.


How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you talked
about one
of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the result
fit the
definition of overtake?

Cheers,
Ellen

The vessel that is overtaking another vessel is the give-way vessel.

You said 180 was "overtaking" the 280 vessel.
End of story. Nothing else matters.

Joe

If the vessels have screwed the pooch to the point where they are truly
about to
collide, it is the duty of both to do whatever is needed to avoid a
collision.

CWM

My seamanship question #1
 

Like we all said, sort of. :-) But, thanks for the technical clarification.
:-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Joe" wrote -way vessel.
| | You said 180 was "overtaking" the 280 vessel.

I did NOT say that. Look again, Joe. I said one sailboat was
catching up to the other. Since everybody seems clueless, I'll
give the answer. It's a crossing situation. Subtract the angles.
It has to be within a 22 and 1/2 degree angle of the centerline
to be overtaking. 208-180 = 28 degrees. Not overtaking.
Pay attention, Joe.

In a crossing situation the sailboat to windward must avoid the
other sailboat since they're both on the starboard tack.

This is FUN!

Cheers,
Ellen


Sorry, Ellen, you have that wrong. Its 22.5 degrees behind the beam, not
a difference in course. If the two boats have those headings it could be
either overtaking or converging, which would make it crossing. However,
since you stated "catching up" its hard to make this into something that
isn't overtaking.