The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
In spite of Thom's assertions, drag wins the day.

Can you answer the question without trying to insult others?

... You can't get lift
without the cost of drag

Hmm, seems like I just heard this somewhere...

... a 35s5 is unable to gain enough velocity
to use such a wing to lift the hull. The 35s5 semi-planes based on the
hull form factor, not the wing.

But other boats might? So you're still prevaricating and
tap-dancing?


Any effort to raise the boat my inducing lift on a dead run would be
made useless by lack of velocity combined with drag.


Hmm, lack of velocity... drag... you need to talk to
somebody at the Department of Connecting the Dots.


Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?


The wing on the 35s5 is a compromise

Ya think so?

... it costs performance in most
situations. The plate effect is one of those costs and efforts to
minimize the plate turbulence is certainly a design goal...one of many
for a wing keel.


There you have it folks. One of the reasons for using a wing
keel is to gain an end plate, and yet the keel is designed
to minimize that effect.

More dots that need to be connected, looks like.


You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?


It behaves very differently on different tacks because forces are
distributed differently all the time. Say that 4 times fast!


I'm not even going to say it once, because you clearly don't
have a clue.

Force are distributed differently on different *points of
sail* but not on different tacks.

Gee an expert sailor is going to get these basic terms
muddled sometimes though. I mean it sure is complicated,
that's why we need an brilliant & experienced sailor like
you to explain how keels and stern platforms work.




I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.

Do tell.

DSK

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

DSK wrote:

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
In spite of Thom's assertions, drag wins the day.

Can you answer the question without trying to insult others?


What insult? Do you wear dresses?


... You can't get lift
without the cost of drag Hmm, seems like I just heard this somewhere...

Yup, I wrote it 40 minutes before you did this morning.


But other boats might? So you're still prevaricating and
tap-dancing?

So are you saying it's impossible for ANY sailboat to create a lifting
force via a wing keel on a downward leg? Careful now!


Hmm, lack of velocity... drag... you need to talk to
somebody at the Department of Connecting the Dots.


Hey, nice try...but I posted my comments on the WK before you did. 40
minutes later you chirped in about vortexes trying to sound fresh and
pretending you hadn't read what I wrote! Sorry, Doug. The times are
listed in the headers. Raise you hand faster next time and maybe you'll
get the gold star.

There you have it folks. One of the reasons for using a wing
keel is to gain an end plate, and yet the keel is designed
to minimize that effect.

Ahhh. When Doug has no point...make one up! The plate effect is a
result of the wing, designed to maximize windward ability while
reducing level draft. No one designed to "gain" turbulance at the keel
base.


Force are distributed differently on different *points of
sail* but not on different tacks.

Ah! LOL! I see what you tried to do there, but you struck out.
Different tacks do indeed mean different forces on the keel. We don't
sail in a water tank, Doug. There are currents, wave action and even
weight distrubution aboard that will change things.


I mean it sure is complicated,
that's why we need an brilliant & experienced sailor like
you to explain how keels and stern platforms work.


Gee, Doug. Can you show everyone anymore clearly how upset you are that
I grasp all this and own a sailboat? C'mon, give it a try!
Dude, you should have realized that you were gonna lose this one.


RB
35s5
NY

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
So are you saying it's impossible for ANY sailboat to create a lifting
force via a wing keel on a downward leg?

Am I saying that?

I *did* say (because it happens to be the case) in order for
a wing keel to generate enough upward lift to raise the boat
any significant amount, the induced drag from that generated
lift would be greater than any drag savings from lifting the
boat.

Now can we explain the difference between wing keels and
hydrofoils to your buddy Krusty/BB? Maybe these guys can help

http://lancet.mit.edu/decavitator/





Hey, nice try...but I posted my comments on the WK before you did. 40
minutes later you chirped in about vortexes trying to sound fresh and
pretending you hadn't read what I wrote!

Good one.

40 minutes? Go back several years and see what I have said
about wing keels in other discussions.




... The plate effect is a
result of the wing

Is it? Why use a wing then, when an end plate would be much
simpler and create less drag? Why did you say that the keel
is designed to minimize the plate effect?




Force are distributed differently on different *points of
sail* but not on different tacks.


Ah! LOL! I see what you tried to do there, but you struck out.

Really?
Then why did you use the wrong terms?


Different tacks do indeed mean different forces on the keel.

Not on normal sailboats they don't. At least, not in the
real world... maybe in the Matrix it's different.


Dude, you should have realized that you were gonna lose this one.



Explain to us all again about you "win" anybody answers one
of your posts.

Bubbles, you're nuts.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

40 minutes? Go back several years and see what I have said
about wing keels in other discussions.


Golly! So are you the 1st person to understand keels or just the only
one living? Doug, what's so funny is that YOU are the true blowhard
around here. When I asked you how many 1st Series boats you had sailed,
the answer was MORE THAN YOU!!! Golly, Doug. Everyone sure is
impressed. After that it was "I EVEN SKIPPERED A COUPLE." WOW! And now
you're the king of keels! All hail....Douglas King Of Keels!
(C'mon, that was funny, Doug!)

Is it? Why use a wing then, when an end plate would be much
simpler and create less drag?

And wing is create more draft to windward or more "bite" as some say.
DDW it's a drag. Period. Efforts to ease the end plate effect have
resulted in partial bulbs at the base of the wing and wider leading
edges at the base to spread water flow. Basic stuff. But then you knew
all that back in 1792, right?


Really?
Then why did you use the wrong terms?

Seriously? This is what's left of you? Using terms as a point of debate
after you failed to win any points? Sad, Doug.


Not on normal sailboats they don't. At least, not in the
real world... maybe in the Matrix it's different.

So then it's not possible? Then say so clearly!

explain to us all again about you "win" anybody answers one
of your posts.

Doug, you're all in a snit because I actually had more than a clue
about my keel and how it works. You're also ****ed off because I go
sailing on my own boat and my wife would never EVER want a trawler. I'm
sorry for you on those counts, but unless you have SOME point to make,
just go have your fuel polished and leave us to do the sailing.

Ummmm...oh yeah, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


RB
35s5
NY

The Irony of the Doug-Dead and Loving It!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
Doug believes that when the sail on a sailboat creates lift, the boat
rises in the air.

Krusty/BB believes that Bobsprit needs help here, so he
rides in like the Lone Ranger.



This link should make poor Doug's head explode like a rotten melon: A
sailboat boat that not only lifts out out of the water due to wings
under the hull, but also manages to overcome all that horrific drag
and go 35 MPH.

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_trifoiler.html


So, you're saying that wings under the hull always lift
boats up? Didn't Bubbles just clearly explain to the contrary?

Oh dear me, nobody can straighten out this muddle!

DSK

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

40 minutes? Go back several years and see what I have said
about wing keels in other discussions.


Capt. Rob wrote:
Golly! So are you the 1st person to understand keels or just the only
one living?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. That's why you can so
easily find direct quotes.

a.... When I asked you how many 1st Series boats you had sailed,
the answer was MORE THAN YOU!!!

Which is the truth.


... After that it was "I EVEN SKIPPERED A COUPLE."

Left something out, didn't you Bubbles?

That's OK, your parents did too.




And wing is create more draft to windward or more "bite" as some say.

Good. That's an excellent and clear scientific explanation:
wing keels bite.

DDW it's a drag. Period.


And that's why Australia 2 was faster off the wind than
Liberty, resulting in her victory in the 1983 America's Cup.



.... Efforts to ease the end plate effect have
resulted in partial bulbs at the base of the wing and wider leading
edges at the base to spread water flow. Basic stuff.

Sure is. Basic gobbledygook.

Maybe those "partial bulbs at the base of the wing" have
something to do with the center of mass of the ballast? Hmm?




Doug, you're all in a snit

Am I?


.... my wife would never EVER want a trawler

So you're saying that your wife is in total control of all
your household decisions and major expenditures?

DSK

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
I arrive in ASA a few eeks ago, and makes an attempt to be at least
somewhat more civil than some previous regulars.

Really? When? Maybe you're thinking of some other usenet group?

Oh wait, you've been an obnoxious jerk other places, too.


... I'm sure everyone here
will thank Doug profusely if some of those characters decided he keeps
invoking their names because he misses them and they come back to
roost for a few more years.


Uh oh, Krusty is threatening me with his phone book again.

DSK

The Irony of the Doug-Dead and Loving It!
 

Doug,

I had to respond once again to your "UP" question. When you sit on a
Kitchen Chair you create a downward force the chair creates a "UP" force
equal to your down force.

Doug, does the chair move up? Of course not. Does it create LIFT? Damn
right it does and in a "UP" direction.

Bye




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

The Irony of the Doug -The Return!
 

Nutsy,

Yes you are starting to get it! Many, many of our ASA friends have not.
_______________________________
I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.
RB
35s5
NY




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

The Irony of the Doug-Dead and Loving It!
 

Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug,

I had to respond once again to your "UP" question. When you sit on a
Kitchen Chair you create a downward force the chair creates a "UP" force
equal to your down force.


Sure.
Not equal in all cases though, otherwise chairs would never
tip over or break, nyet?

Doug, does the chair move up? Of course not.

Because you created the down force first.

... Does it create LIFT? Damn
right it does and in a "UP" direction.


But if it had wings, it would go faster.

Actually there is a difference between "upward force" and
lift. You can throw a brick into the air, is that creating
lift? I thought that by asking about 'lift' and 'up'
together in the same sentence, it would be fairly clear what
I meant. Maybe not.

DSK