otnmbrd wrote:
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?

Because I run systems on research vessels.

Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

Ummm, Joe was saying that the helmsman could have been playing games
because he could get back on course before anyone figured it out. I'm
pointing out that - those days are GONE.


otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means

Heh. Got news for you, *I* tell *them*.

I don't tell the skipper how to drive his ship and he doesn't tell me
how to collect & analyze the data. But I do get to tell him *where* to
drive the ship.

Otn, if you have experience on oceanographic research vessels tracking
satellites across the sky every pass in all weathers, plus running
sophisticated acoustics mapping the sea floor, you'd realise just why I
have all the instruments. Being able to look at it later if someone's
suspected of playing games is just a spinoff. I was aboard a vessel
which had an engine room fire inside the icepack in winter once and my
systems stayed up for 8 hours after the power failed (biiiig UPS). The
data were used subsequently to help sort out timelines and the like.

As an aside, I was on the bridge once while we had a meeting and the
scientists carefully explained to the skipper & watchkeeping officers
why it was *extremely* important that they not deviate at all from the
track from waypoint to waypoint as we'd miss out on bottom coverage.

Some hours later we did, indeed, deviate. The chief scientist came
rushing to the bridge from the instrument room, and started laying into
the officer of the watch about how they couldn't follow simple
instructions and how useless they all were.

Watchkeeping officer pointed out the port window, where some 50m off
there was a 1 km tabular berg. Then suggested that the scientist get
the hell off of the bridge.

I've seen it all, my friend. I've had the fun of hand steering an
icebreaker down leads in the pack, leaving a course track that looked
later like a drunken snail trail (similar to my normal helming, in
fact, but what the hell, they pay me...). I don't make assumptions
(except that most scientists are of limited competence outside their
specialty) until I have all the facts. WRT this thread, perhaps you
might consider the wisdom of that, before you flame me for something I
didn't say.

PDW



"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

Peter wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?

Because I run systems on research vessels.

Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

Ummm, Joe was saying that the helmsman could have been playing games
because he could get back on course before anyone figured it out. I'm
pointing out that - those days are GONE.


All your fancy instruments can do is tell when and how the ship turned,
unless you have a wheel sensor or a camera watching the helmsman just
how are they going to prove that he wipped the wheel two turns stbd, 4
Port then centered back up on course?

Joe





otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means

Heh. Got news for you, *I* tell *them*.

I don't tell the skipper how to drive his ship and he doesn't tell me
how to collect & analyze the data. But I do get to tell him *where* to
drive the ship.

Otn, if you have experience on oceanographic research vessels tracking
satellites across the sky every pass in all weathers, plus running
sophisticated acoustics mapping the sea floor, you'd realise just why I
have all the instruments. Being able to look at it later if someone's
suspected of playing games is just a spinoff. I was aboard a vessel
which had an engine room fire inside the icepack in winter once and my
systems stayed up for 8 hours after the power failed (biiiig UPS). The
data were used subsequently to help sort out timelines and the like.

As an aside, I was on the bridge once while we had a meeting and the
scientists carefully explained to the skipper & watchkeeping officers
why it was *extremely* important that they not deviate at all from the
track from waypoint to waypoint as we'd miss out on bottom coverage.

Some hours later we did, indeed, deviate. The chief scientist came
rushing to the bridge from the instrument room, and started laying into
the officer of the watch about how they couldn't follow simple
instructions and how useless they all were.

Watchkeeping officer pointed out the port window, where some 50m off
there was a 1 km tabular berg. Then suggested that the scientist get
the hell off of the bridge.

I've seen it all, my friend. I've had the fun of hand steering an
icebreaker down leads in the pack, leaving a course track that looked
later like a drunken snail trail (similar to my normal helming, in
fact, but what the hell, they pay me...). I don't make assumptions
(except that most scientists are of limited competence outside their
specialty) until I have all the facts. WRT this thread, perhaps you
might consider the wisdom of that, before you flame me for something I
didn't say.

PDW



"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

Joe wrote:
All your fancy instruments can do is tell when and how the ship turned,
unless you have a wheel sensor or a camera watching the helmsman just
how are they going to prove that he wipped the wheel two turns stbd, 4
Port then centered back up on course?


Wrong.

There would almost certainly be an autologging feature on
the helm servos & the switchgear would log the power
consumption on that circuit.

DSK

DSK wrote:
Joe wrote:
All your fancy instruments can do is tell when and how the ship turned,
unless you have a wheel sensor or a camera watching the helmsman just
how are they going to prove that he wipped the wheel two turns stbd, 4
Port then centered back up on course?


Wrong.

There would almost certainly be an autologging feature on
the helm servos & the switchgear would log the power
consumption on that circuit.

DSK

Huh?

Joe

Joe wrote:
DSK wrote:

Joe wrote:

All your fancy instruments can do is tell when and how the ship turned,
unless you have a wheel sensor or a camera watching the helmsman just
how are they going to prove that he wipped the wheel two turns stbd, 4
Port then centered back up on course?


Wrong.

There would almost certainly be an autologging feature on
the helm servos & the switchgear would log the power
consumption on that circuit.

DSK


Huh?

Joe

There would almost certainly be an autologging feature on
the helm servos & the switchgear would log the power
consumption on that circuit.


Joe wrote:
Huh?


It means that the exact time & amount of helm angle... down
to the tenth or hundredth of a second if desired... would be
part of a permanent record.

The helmsperson might be sneaky enough to fool a drowsy OOD
but there would be a bright & clear paper trail.

DSK

"Peter" wrote in message
oups.com...

otnmbrd wrote:
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?

Because I run systems on research vessels.

G Kinda guessed something like that.

Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just
where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the
helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

Ummm, Joe was saying that the helmsman could have been playing games
because he could get back on course before anyone figured it out. I'm
pointing out that - those days are GONE.

Actually those days were gone long before the newer systems. However, for
this type vessel the helmsman does little more than monitor things at sea as
the ship will be on autopilot 99% of the time and if the ship was on "hand"
steering, all of his actions would be watched.
(Not to say he couldn't screwup/oversteer, but odds are this is a
mechanical/electronic glitch since the action to induce a 15deg roll would
be a considerable, uncorrected screwup...... unlikely.)

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the
people
on the ships what it means

Heh. Got news for you, *I* tell *them*.

G It's a two way street. When lucky enough to have this type of data, you
can generally get much more from it if you analyze it together, rather than
seperately.


I've seen it all, my friend. I've had the fun of hand steering an
icebreaker down leads in the pack, leaving a course track that looked
later like a drunken snail trail (similar to my normal helming, in
fact, but what the hell, they pay me...). I don't make assumptions
(except that most scientists are of limited competence outside their
specialty) until I have all the facts. WRT this thread, perhaps you
might consider the wisdom of that, before you flame me for something I
didn't say.

PDW

My first job in "65" was on a research vessel (long gone) and I've had
numerous occasions to observe the "scientist" "deckie" relationship since.
As for flaming you....G nah.....I just responded to what you *did* say,
and you'll note that in my first post I stated that I'm going to be
interested in finding out what really was the cause of this, once the
investigation is complete.

otn