Dave,

How can you call Ethanol a "Starry Eyed Approach" when we are already
putting close to 4 Billon gallon into the Nation's Energy supply/year?

Also; before you damn Ethanol's cost let's see just how much cost is
involved in fossil fuel. We both know it's not free. I can offer 77%
return on Ethanol. What do you say is Oil's % of return on a gallon of
Mid-East Crude delivered to Long Beach, Calif.?

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Not only that but according to my calculations oil will be at 213 a
barell by 2010.

Nuclear power is the way to go IMO.
No waste problems, we can use the depleted uranium in Iran.

With todays technology we can make nuclear power plants for autos,
boats, home's ect.

Using wind to power anything will never happen.

Capt. Suzy
35s5
NY

"SUZY" wrote
Nuclear power is the way to go IMO.
With todays technology we can make nuclear power plants for autos,
boats, home's ect.

But as Dave pointed out, not with today's mindset and the triumph of faith over
reason.

Blind faith tells many that Nuclear power is bad. If advertising can convince
the same fools that Ethanol is the way to go, we will, no matter what the cost.

Vito,

I didn't know you had an Eye Problem.
It should clear up with Ethanol. 85% less emissions (G)

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

"Thom Stewart" wrote
Vito,

I didn't know you had an Eye Problem.
It should clear up with Ethanol. 85% less emissions (G)

I simply don't believe that, although I trust you do. What emissions does it
have 85% less of?

Again, before 1970, US and other cars made good use of high octane gas in high
compression engines. But these high compression engines made NOx, not from
gasoline but from compressing and heating air. So EPA dictated that all US
engines had to run on lower octane unleaded gasoline, which required lowering
compression ratios significantly. The new cars typically got 40% poorer gas
mileage and thus produced more COx *per mile* even with expensive catalytic
converters - but they did make less NOx. OK?

In fact, we could reduce gas consumption by that same 40%+ over the next 5 years
by simply requiring that all new cars have high (12:1+) compression engines and
that refineries provide the high octane gasoline they'd need. The "Ethel" Corp.
would be back in business!

Moreover, if you used high octane gas in a low compression engine, designed for
unleaded regular, you will get less power and poored mileage than from running
regular - and make more carboniferous smog. This is because the high octane gas
will not be fully burned in the lower compression motor.

Ethanol has an even higher equivalent octane rating than leaded gas. That's
what made it an attractive racing fuel. It permitted 14:1 and higher compression
ratios that made more power (especially with a tad of nitro). But, for that
reason, it cannot burn efficiently in a low compression motor any more than
super-high octane race gas will. It follows that, if you build motors to use
ethanol efficiently, then they will perforce make more NOx. Alternately, if you
retain low compression, you cannot burn the Ethanol properly and will get both
poor milage and thus make more COx per mile. It is inescapable.

Magic bullet proponants try to cover up these facts with half-truths by pointing
to mileage achieved by tiny light cars running E85, but never mentioning that
these cars cannot pass DOT safety spec's and would do just as well on gasoline -
just as they hide the unfavorable balance of energy in/out by ignoring the
energy cost of growing corn. You are prone to the same when you cite the cost of
oil. The dollar cost of crude oil is meaningless to the energy in/out equation.
Question is "How much *energy* does it take to get that crude and make enough
gasoline to propel a typical US car say 100 miles?" versus "How much energy does
it take to grow the corn and make enough Ethanol to push the same car the same
distance with the same level of performance?".

Vito,

I'd like to remind you that this whole OT discussion started about "High
Price Of Imported oil" I must be missing something in your Posts. I'm
not sure you have ever addressed the problem of dependence on foreign
imported oil.

You haven't, as yet, address todays Ethanol technology production of
Cellulosic Ethanol. Vito, if we are using switchgrass to make Ethanol,
it cost us nothing to grow Corn! Switchgrassis a Perennial and doesn't
need to be plowed or planted, just cut like Hay. It will grow on very
poor soil, where food crops can't grow. The same can be said for Popular
trees, sugar cane stalks, even urban wastes. This also produces enough
heat to Co-Gen Electricity.

Vito, I've heard it said that swtchgrass growing on unusable land could
free us from foreign imported oil.

As far as emissions; probably the same as gasoline but some 85% less.
Even if we burn another 1/2 gallon for the same energy, the emissions
are still less, plus its "MADE IN AMERICA"

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

"Thom Stewart" wrote
Vito,
I'd like to remind you that this whole OT discussion started about "High
Price Of Imported oil" I must be missing something in your Posts. I'm
not sure you have ever addressed the problem of dependence on foreign
imported oil.

Sorry you missed it.

Ethanol requires high compression engines to burn efficiently - to get decent
gas mileage. So does high octane (rated) gasoline. Such engines make more NOx,
so EPA effectively banned them circa 1970. Gas mileage in comparable cars
dropped about 40%! It follows that we could reduce our oil consumption by that
same 40% , very nearly eliminating our need to import oil, by simply rescinding
that EPA rule. But the trade off would be more NOx. OK?

Ethanol has a very high equivalent octane rating, meaning that it requires even
higher compression engines to burn efficiently. Thus an equivalent family sedan
burning E85 *efficiently* will produce the same NOx as a gasoline engine because
the NOx comes from compressing and heating the air, not from the fuel. So, if
we are going to accept more NOx in order to burn E85, then why not do the same
and burn alot less gasoline??

OTOH, if more NOx is NOT acceptable, then E85 cars in the USA will get crappy
mileage - 1.5 times poorer than gasoline in low compression engines and over 2x
poorer than gas in efficient engines. That means it will take as much or more
ENERGY to produce enough E85 to move a car XXX miles than we get back. Where
will that energy come from? Foreign oil?? Coal? Nuclear fuel? If so we may
as well go to electric cars.

You haven't, as yet, address todays Ethanol technology production of
Cellulosic Ethanol. Vito, if we are using switchgrass to make Ethanol,
it cost us nothing to grow Corn! Switchgrass is a Perennial and doesn't
need to be plowed or planted, just cut like Hay. It will grow on very
poor soil, where food crops can't grow. The same can be said for Popular
trees, sugar cane stalks, even urban wastes. This also produces enough
heat to Co-Gen Electricity.

Just like hay, eh?

Is switchgrass native to the USA? If not, what will introducing 1000s upon
1000s of acres of it do to our native species of grasses and our ecology? Is it
any better than native grass? That aside ....

Have you ever made hay? It requires much more manual labor than corn. Where
will that labor come from? Illegal aliens?

Nor does hay grow free as you seem to think. Like a lawn it requires touch-up
reseeding and plenty of fertilizer - made from oil! Then it must be dried in the
field before it can be bailed for storage. During that time it must be raked and
turned over several times so it dries evenly and if it rains during that time
the crop may be ruined. Alternately, the grass can be cut and ensiled wet,
which is prolly better for ethanol production. But that takes as much energy as
harvesting corn silage. I've farmed both hay and corn. Without doing a lot of
research I believe it would be cheaper, both financially and energy wise, to
grow corn than hay for the same ethanol yield.

In the USA we grow corn for silage as well as grain. There is little or no
waste. Corn grown for grain is genetically engineered to produce little or no
waste. By the time it is dry enough to harvest, and has been "combined", there
isn't much stalk, leaves or cob left to get ethanol from and what is left is
needed by the soil as fertilizer. Silage corn is cut wetter but is much more
difficult and energy consuming to harvest, transport and store than grain.
Based on the figures you and others have provided, I sincerely doubt you could
get enough ethanol out of corn or hay, grown for that purpose, to run the
machines neded to produce it.

Other countries have different situations. You (?) pointed out that one of them
had tons of sugar cane as a waste after the sugar is extracted but now use that
waste to make ethanol, getting back a gallon for every 0.7 gallons used. Gee,
that's great. But I don't know any US equivlent to that waste except perhaps
feed lot manure. Could it be used to make more ethanol than required for
production?

Vito, I've heard it said that swtchgrass growing on unusable land could
free us from foreign imported oil.

I've heard that Jesus Christ is coming to save us too - but I'm not holding my
breath for either one.

As far as emissions; probably the same as gasoline but some 85% less.
Even if we burn another 1/2 gallon for the same energy, the emissions
are still less, plus its "MADE IN AMERICA"

Sorry, but that simply does not compute. Back in the late 1960's we were told
that low compression engines produced fewer emissions too. And that proved true
if by "emissions" you meant NOx emissions. But it meant a lot more of other
emissions per mile driven! Obviously, the ethanol evangelists are using the
same math. If we burn 1.5 gallons of ethanol to do the same work as 1 gallon of
gasoline now (or 0.6 gallons if EPA died on the spot) then it is hard to believe
that i going to make less smoke. 85% less of what??

Might as well pray.

Hey Wop,

Are you saying Switchgrass isn't a Native to the USA? Vito, You better
read up on American History! At one time, in the Mid-west,South,and
Northern Plains it was all the Human Eye could see. It was what the
Cowboys designed "Chaps" for. It grows about 10ft Tall in one growning
season.

When it was cut down and plowed under it resulted in the "Dust Storms"
that forced the immigration to Calif,

Here is a write up on "Switchgrass" Long; Very long but really worth the
read.

Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures
Click here to download or view this brochure in PDF format (191 k)
The grass stretched as far as the eye could see, and hundreds more miles
beyond that. An ocean of grass—deep enough to swallow a horse and
rider—swaying and singing in the steady wind of the Great Plains. §

The American prairie—tens of millions of acres— once looked like
this. But that was centuries ago, before the coming of the white man,
the railroad, and the steel plow. Today, corn and beans hold sway, and
the remnants of America's tallgrass prairie are confined mostly to parks
and preserves.

§ Now, though, in research plots and laboratories in the Plains
states and even in the Deep South the seeds of change are germinating.
The tall, native grasses of the prairie, so vital to our land's
ecological past, may prove equally vital to its economic future. Such
grasses once fed millions of bison. Soon, grown as energy crops, they
may help fuel millions of cars and trucks, spin power turbines, and
supply chemicals to American industries.

Test plots of switchgrass at Auburn University have produced up to 15
tons of dry biomass per acre, and five- year yields average 11.5
tons—enough to make 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre each year.The
U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) believes that biofuels—made from crops
of native grasses, such as fast- growing switchgrass—could reduce the
nation's dependence on foreign oil, curb emissions of the "greenhouse
gas" carbon dioxide, and strengthen America's farm economy. The Biofuels
Feedstock Development Program (BFDP) at DOE's Oak Ridge National
Laboratory (ORNL), has assembled a team of scientists ranging from
economists and energy analysts to plant physiologists and geneticists to
lay the groundwork for this new source of renewable energy. Included are
researchers at universities, other national laboratories, and
agricultural research stations around the nation. Their goal, according
to ORNL physiologist Sandy McLaughlin, who leads the switchgrass
research effort, is nothing short of building the foundation for a
biofuels industry that will make and market ethanol and other biofuels
from switchgrass and at prices competitive with fossil fuels such as
gasoline and diesel.

Not the grass in your backyard
First, a distinction: switchgrass and your suburban lawn
grasses—bluegrass and zoysia grass— are about as similar as a
shopping-mall ficus and an old-growth redwood. Switchgrass is big and
it's tough—after a good growing season, it can stand 10 feet high,
with stems as thick and strong as hardwood pencils.
But what makes switchgrass bad for barefoot lawns makes it ideal for
energy crops: It grows fast, capturing lots of solar energy and turning
it into lots of chemical energy— cellulose—that can be liquified,
gasified, or burned directly.

It also reaches deep into the soil for water, and uses the water it
finds very efficiently.
And because it spent millions of years evolving to thrive in climates
and growing conditions spanning much of the nation, switchgrass is
remarkably adaptable.
Now, to make switchgrass even more promising, researchers across the
country are working to boost switchgrass hardiness and yields, adapt
varieties to a wide range of growing conditions, and reduce the need for
nitrogen and other chemical fertilizers.

By "fingerprinting" the DNA and physiological characteristics of
numerous varieties, the researchers are steadily identifying and
breeding varieties of switchgrass that show great promise for the
future.

Switchgrass can be cut and baled with standard farming equipment.

Yield of dreams
In the hard, shallow soil of southern Alabama, Dave Bransby is turning
cotton fields into swatches of grassland. Some Alabama farmers joke that
there's no soil in Alabama to farm—two centuries of King Cotton and
steady erosion haven't left much behind. Yet Bransby, a forage scientist
at Auburn University, has found a crop that thrives the Among the 19
research sites in the Eastern and Central United States raising
switchgrass for the BFDP studies, Bransby's site holds the one-year
record at 15 tons per acre.

Those are dry tons weighed after all the moisture's been baked out.
Convert that into ethanol, an alcohol that can fuel vehicles, and it
equals about 1,500 gallons per acre. Bransby's 6-year average, 11.5 tons
a year, translates into about 11,500 gallons of ethanol per acre.

An added bonus is the electricity that can be produced from the leftover
portions of the crop that won't convert to ethanol.
Many farmers are already experienced at raising switchgrass for forage
or to protect soil from erosion.

Besides showing great promise for energy production, switchgrass also
restores vital organic nutrients to farmed-out soils.Many farmers
already grow switchgrass, either as forage for livestock or as a ground
cover, to control erosion.

Cultivating switchgrass as an energy crop instead would require only
minor changes in how it's managed and when it's harvested. Switchgrass
can be cut and baled with conventional mowers and balers. And it's a
hardy, adaptable perennial, so once it's established in a field, it can
be harvested as a cash crop, either annually or semiannually, for 10
years or more before replanting is needed. And because it has multiple
uses—as an ethanol feedstock, as forage, as ground cover—a farmer
who plants switchgrass can be confident knowing that a switchgrass crop
will be put to good use.

Farmers working in production mode might not match Bransby's carefully
tended research plots, but if the future brings rises in oil prices—or
if environmental taxes are eventually imposed on fossil fuels—energy
from switchgrass could prove economically competitive with petroleum and
coal, making biomass crops attractive to American farmers.

And with recent advances in the technology of gasification, switchgrass
could yield a variety of useful fuels—synthetic gasoline and diesel
fuel, methanol, methane gas, even hydrogen—as well as chemical
by-products useful for making fertilizers, solvents, and plastics.

Strong environmental roots
Annual cultivation of many agricultural crops depletes the soil's
organic matter, steadily reducing fertility. But switchgrass adds
organic matter—the plants extend nearly as far below ground as above.
And with its network of stems and roots, switchgrass holds onto soil
even in winter to prevent erosion.

Besides helping slow runoff and anchor soil, switchgrass can also filter
runoff from fields planted with traditional row crops. Buffer strips of
switchgrass, planted along streambanks and around wetlands, could remove
soil particles, pesticides, and fertilizer residues from surface water
before it reaches groundwater or streams—and could also provide
energy.

And because switchgrass removes carbon dioxide (CO2 ) from the air as it
grows, it has the potential to slow the buildup of this greenhouse gas
in Earth's atmosphere. Unlike fossil fuels, which simply release more
and more of the CO2 that's been in geologic storage for millions of
years, energy crops of switchgrass "recycle" CO2 over and over again,
with each year's cycle of growth and use.
The road ahead

One reason BFDP researchers are confident that switchgrass can become an
important feedstock for ethanol production is the groundwork that's
already been laid by corn growers. U.S. ethanol production from corn
currently totals nearly 2 billion gallons a year. Some of this ethanol
is blended with gasoline to make gasohol; some is further refined to
make gasoline octane boosters; and some is burned, either in pure
("neat") form or mixed with a small percentage of gasoline, in fleets of
research and demonstration vehicles.
Looking down the road, McLaughlin believes switchgrass offers important
advantages as an energy crop.

"Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce
as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce
about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the
energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and
harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20
times better than corn's.

" Switchgrass also does a far better job of protecting soil, virtually
eliminating erosion. And it removes considerably more CO2 from the air,
packing it away in soils and roots.

Switchgrass offers excellent habitat for a wide variety of birds and
small mammals.Back to the future
At the turn of the last century, America's transportation system was
fueled by biomass: 30 million horses and mules, give or take a few
million, pulled buggies, hauled wagons, dragged plows. According to Ken
Vogel, a U.S. Department of Agriculture forage geneticist helping
develop and test switchgrass for the BFDP, replacing animal power with
machine power freed up 80 million acres of U.S. land—land that had
been used to grow grass and other feed for these millions of animals.
Now, at the dawn of the next century, the wheel could begin to turn full
circle. On millions of acres of farm land not needed for food crops,
fast-growing energy crops of switchgrass—harvested and converted
efficiently to clean-burning, affordable ethanol, methanol, or
diesel—could once again supply vast amounts of horsepower.

In short, biomass could bring back a 21st-century version of the
prairie. And along with the prairie, it could bring a new crop to
America's farms, a boost to U.S. energy independence, and brighter
prospects for a clean, sustainable future. According to BFDP and its
research partners across the country, that's a future worth cultivating.

For more information, contact:
Bioenergy Feedstock Development Program
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
P.O. Box 2008
Oak Ridge, TN 37831-6422
865-576-8143 (fax) Produced for DOE's Office of Transportation
Technologies and the Office of Power Technologies within the Office of
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

"Thom Stewart" wrote
Are you saying Switchgrass isn't a Native to the USA? Vito, You better
read up on American History! At one time, in the Mid-west,South,and
Northern Plains it was all the Human Eye could see. It was what the
Cowboys designed "Chaps" for. It grows about 10ft Tall in one growning
season.

No, just that I've never seen or heard of it despite crossing the country many
times. Funny no historians or writers of that time, including my thrice-great
grandfather who led any number of wagon trains ever mention 10' high grass with
1/4" stalks blocking their way. Maybe the Buffalo kept it trimmed grin

Here is a write up on "Switchgrass" Long; Very long but really worth the
read.

Evangalists sat the same about the Bible.

The grass stretched as far as the eye could see, and hundreds more miles
beyond that. An ocean of grass-deep enough to swallow a horse and
rider-swaying and singing in the steady wind of the Great Plains. §

Yet nobody noticed it??

The American prairie-tens of millions of acres- once looked like
this. But that was centuries ago, before the coming of the white man,
the railroad, and the steel plow. Today, corn and beans hold sway, and
the remnants of America's tallgrass prairie are confined mostly to parks
and preserves.

Ahhh, I don't think so. I've been to most western parks and never saw 10'
grass.

§ Now, though, in research plots and laboratories in the Plains
states and even in the Deep South the seeds of change are germinating.
The tall, native grasses of the prairie, so vital to our land's
ecological past, may prove equally vital to its economic future. Such
grasses once fed millions of bison. Soon, grown as energy crops, they
may help fuel millions of cars and trucks, spin power turbines, and
supply chemicals to American industries.

Really plunks your heart strings doesn't it? Prose worthy of the old snake oil
salesmen. No wonder they're enjoying all that grant money.

Test plots of switchgrass at Auburn University have produced up to 15
tons of dry biomass per acre, and five- year yields average 11.5
tons-enough to make 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre each year.

How does that compare to corn?

U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) believes that biofuels-made from crops
of native grasses, such as fast- growing switchgrass-could reduce the
nation's dependence on foreign oil, curb emissions of the "greenhouse
gas" carbon dioxide,.....

Back in 1978, Gas in California cost $1.20/gal compared to 0.40 in Mexico.
Asked why the head Mexican explained "Because we don't have a DOE."

Kindly explain how burning 1.5 gallon of ethanol vs 1 gallon of gas reduces CO2.

Switchgrass is big and
it's tough-after a good growing season, it can stand 10 feet high,
with stems as thick and strong as hardwood pencils.

snip biblethumping

Switchgrass can be cut and baled with standard farming equipment.

Bwahahahaha! Sure it can. Ask a farmer to borrow his haymaking equipment to
harvest 10' high grass with stems like hardwood pencils.

Yield of dreams .........., Bransby's site holds the one-year
record at 15 tons per acre.

And how much energy and chemicals did Bransby use to produce and dry those 15
tons/acre?

Those are dry tons weighed after all the moisture's been baked out.
Convert that into ethanol, an alcohol that can fuel vehicles, and it
equals about 1,500 gallons per acre. Bransby's 6-year average, 11.5 tons
a year, translates into about 11,500 gallons of ethanol per acre.

Meaningless info unless we are told how many BTUs/gallon are needed to grow,
harvest, dry and cook then distill the grass to get a gallon of ethanol and how
many BTUs of energy do we get back.

If switchgrass was so prevalent, and beneficial, why do cattle pastures not use
it still? If it's such a great feed why does everybody grow corn? Why did out
ancestors work so hard to eradicate it? Maybe we otta sic the mythbusters onto
it.

So be it Vito,

It take Wisdom to recognize Wisdom, If the audience if deaf (or refuses
to hear) there is no music. W. Lippman I believe said it in 1929