A bit of CCP of which I'm not to swift. Some information. A rather long
read but some very good information about Ethanol


Ethanol has a positive energy balance, meaning the ethanol yields more
energy than it takes to produce it. It is an efficient fuel made through
an efficient process.
It takes less than 35,000 BTUs of energy to turn corn into ethanol,
while the ethanol offers at least 77,000 BTUs of energy. Ethanol's
energy balance is clearly positive.
Research studies from a variety of sources have found ethanol to have a
positive net energy balance. The most recent, by the U.S. Department of
Agriculture, shows that ethanol provides an average net energy gain of
at least 77%.

One faulty, outdated study shows ethanol's net energy balance to be
negative. That research uses fundamentally flawed, decades old data that
is not valid considering today's efficiencies in agriculture and in
ethanol production. brings the overall price down.
The U.S. ethanol industry provides more than 4 billion gallons of fuel
to our nation's supply each year. Especially when refining capacity is
tight, a larger fuel supply means less price volatility.
Removing ethanol from our nation's supply would mean we'd immediately
need to find 3% more fuel – that would cause dramatic spikes in fuel
prices.

Ethanol's impact on air quality
Using ethanol-blended fuel has a positive impact on air quality. Ethanol
is an oxygenate, and that oxygen helps the fuel burn more cleanly and
more completely - a cleaner fuel for cleaner air.
Many areas of the country have used ethanol in order to meet EPA clean
air standards with great results. Ethanol reduces the emissions of
carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, and toxic air emissions.

Ethanol's role in energy independence
Ethanol is an American-made fuel that helps our country to be more
energy independent. U.S. ethanol production provides more than 4 billion
gallons of fuel for our country – fuel produced at home from renewable
resources, fuel that doesn't need to be imported.
Ethanol is not the only answer to America's energy needs, but it is
part of the overall solution. Energy independence means having choices,
and ethanol is one of those choices that can be made right here in the
U.S. from renewable resources.
Ethanol's impact on the economy
Ethanol has a tremendously positive impact on our nation's economy. It
creates jobs and increases revenues; increases farm income and reduces
farm program payments; and decreases the amount of energy we import.
The combination of reduced farm program payments and increased tax
revenues adds at least $1.30 to the U.S. Treasury for every gallon of
ethanol produced. This figure even takes into consideration the ethanol
incentive program. (AUS Consultants, Inc.)
Ethanol has a tremendously positive impact on the local economies around
the plants themselves. Local people are employed; local crops are
purchased to make the ethanol; and local tax bases are significantly
expanded.
An average-sized ethanol plant employs about 40 people with good-paying,
high-skill jobs and provides spin-off jobs through local providers of
goods and services for the plant.
week's time.

The Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS)
The Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) is a policy that would require an
increasing amount of renewable fuels to be used each year. The RFS in
the recently passed federal energy bill would slate 7.5 billion gallons
of ethanol to be used in the U.S. by 2012. In 2004, the U.S. used 3.4
billion gallons of ethanol.
The RFS would streamline the current patchwork of fuel regulations we
have across this country. States, regions – and in some cases cities
– have different fuel requirements, and the RFS would allow renewable
fuels to be used where they make the most sense instead of forcing the
production of all these "boutique" fuels.

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http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

"Thom Stewart" wrote
It takes less than 35,000 BTUs of energy to turn corn into ethanol,
while the ethanol offers at least 77,000 BTUs of energy. Ethanol's
energy balance is clearly positive.

OK, but how many BTUs did it take to grow the corn? Don't forget the fuel to
plow, disk, plant and harvest the corn then the fuel for the silo heaters needed
to dry it for shipment then shipping costs to collect the corn and take it to
the distillery.

One faulty, outdated study shows ethanol's net energy balance to be
negative. That research uses fundamentally flawed, decades old data that
is not valid considering today's efficiencies in agriculture and in
ethanol production. brings the overall price down.

Let's see the numbers.

Removing ethanol from our nation's supply would mean we'd immediately
need to find 3% more fuel - that would cause dramatic spikes in fuel
prices.

I was told that back in the 1970s so I tried "gasahol" - 10% methanol. My cars
ran, albiet with less power, but I got almost exactly 10% less miles per gallon.
That says the alchohol wasn't burning at all, that it was just an expensive
filler, like mixing sawdust into hamburger. I used the first tank of the new
ethanol-blended gas last week and got 15MPG instead of the usual 18-20.

Ethanol's impact on air quality
Using ethanol-blended fuel has a positive impact on air quality. Ethanol
is an oxygenate, and that oxygen helps the fuel burn more cleanly and
more completely - a cleaner fuel for cleaner air.
Many areas of the country have used ethanol in order to meet EPA clean
air standards with great results. Ethanol reduces the emissions of
carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, and toxic air emissions.

BS! Adding a small quantity any oxygenate to gasoline reduces the unburned
hydrocarbons, but raises the cost of the gas and reduces mileage. We could also
reduce unburned hydrocarbons plus improve mileage by raising compression ratios
again. But that'd cause more nitric acid in the air. And thats why the law says
engines must burn unleaded gas - because it forced manufacturers to lower
compression ratios. And that in turn necessitated expensive and now ubiquitous
catalitic converters and MTBE.

Ethanol is an American-made fuel that helps our country to be more
energy independent.

That's great! Now all we have to do is get EPA to require that all new cars
have 14:1 compression suitable for burning ethanol efficiently. Or course we'll
have watering eyes and rotting drapes but less hyrocarbons.

Otherwise, ........

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 May 2006 21:47:01 -0700, (Thom Stewart) said:

A bit of CCP of which I'm not to swift. Some information. A rather long
read but some very good information about Ethanol

Not much new there. The net effect is that you need to produce 3 gallons
of
ethanol to replace one gallon of gasoline. So if ethanol can be sold for
1/3
the per gallon cost of gasoline you're at least in a break even position
replacing gasoline with ethanol.

The numbers I've seen indicate 1.5 gallons of E85 (the highest useable
concentration of EToH) roughly equal one gallon of gasoline.

Max

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey Wop!!

What an asinine reply!

So how much BTU's to plant the dinosaurs and convert them to oil. How
much BTU's to tramp around the world trying to find oil. How many dry
holes. How many BTU's setting Rigs, pumping. transporting crews, Tankers
transporting crude thousands of miles over the worlds Oceans; traveling
one way with empty tanks, land transport to Refineries. Seaman's pay,
Roust-abouts pay, Shipping terminals cost and their payrolls. I don't
think a Farmer and tractor running a disc plow and a harvester will even
come close to that cost.

You inadvertently explain why ethanol is not the miracle cure you claim it
is. The farmer and tractor. Pesticides to keep the bugs at bay, you know,
petrochemicals. Energy needed to convert the corn into ethanol, currently
not a very efficient process. At the end of the day, it still requires 1.1
gallons of fossil fuel equivalents to produce 1 gallon of ethanol at this
time. A simpler analogy, would you invest $110,000 for a return of $100,000
and think it was a good investment?

John Cairns

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:41:24 GMT, "Maxprop" said:

The numbers I've seen indicate 1.5 gallons of E85 (the highest useable
concentration of EToH) roughly equal one gallon of gasoline.

I think that's a slightly different issue. As I understand it, what you're
saying is that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to provide the same
effective
energy output as 1 gallon of gasoline--strictly an energy output issue.
The
numbers I was talking about related to inputs to and output of the ethanol
itself, and suggested that one used about 2/3 of a gallon of petroleum
products to produce 1 gallon of ethanol.

The numbers I've seen, with respect to cellulosic ethanol production, are
far less. I tried to relocate the website, but had no luck.

Max

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey Piasano!!

What an asinine reply!

Go to Naples.

So how much BTU's to plant the dinosaurs and convert them to oil. How
much BTU's to tramp around the world trying to find oil. How many dry
holes. How many BTU's setting Rigs, pumping. transporting crews, Tankers
transporting crude thousands of miles over the worlds Oceans; traveling
one way with empty tanks, land transport to Refineries. Seaman's pay,
Roust-abouts pay, Shipping terminals cost and their payrolls. I don't
think a Farmer and tractor running a disc plow and a harvester will even
come close to that cost.

Obviously less than we get from the gasoline or we wouldn't be doing it. These
are private funds from hardheaded businessmen who wouldn't be wasting their
money. OTOH the gummymint is subsidizing Ethanol. So again, how much energy does
it take to get a gallon of Ethanol, including the energy to grow the corn, Vs
the energy that gallon produces in an engine designed for gasoline??

Plus; it is a renewable source!! Who and how are you going to use to
plant new Dino. and where are you going to get them;----

What else; Oh yeah, had to go back to see what else; Compress Ratio &
Nitric Acid! No one said to change engine Compression. That's all in
your mind, Vito. Just the same as your Nitric Acid. If we burn Alky or
Gasoline will there be a change in the Nitric emission?

Yes! Unleaded gas will burn and produce energy at well under 10:1 compression.
Back in 1970 EPA forced mfgr.s to lower compression ratios to those levels to
reduce the NOx emissions. OTOH cousin Enzo and others used compression ratios of
14:1 and more to very effectively burn Ethanol in their racing engines. It don't
burn worth a crap in todays US motors.

ETHANOL FOR E85 AND AMERICAN FUEL INDEPENDENCE

Fine with me if you make it burn efficiently enough to be economically viable.
My sympathy is with the farmers not big oil - except when my taxes are being
handed to some lunatics who want to spend more to produce less energy. But the
tree huggers will squall when they find out that the new emission levels are
rotting their cloths, burning eyes and killing fish, not to mention making even
worse holes in the ozone layer.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:41:24 GMT, "Maxprop" said:

The numbers I've seen indicate 1.5 gallons of E85 (the highest useable
concentration of EToH) roughly equal one gallon of gasoline.

I think that's a slightly different issue. As I understand it, what you're
saying is that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to provide the same effective
energy output as 1 gallon of gasoline--strictly an energy output issue. The
numbers I was talking about related to inputs to and output of the ethanol
itself, and suggested that one used about 2/3 of a gallon of petroleum
products to produce 1 gallon of ethanol.

OK, but then I must burn 1.5 gallons (50% more) Ethanol to go the same miles as
a gollon of gas so 2/3 x 1.5 = 1, ie it takes the energy equivalent of 1 gallon
of gas to get the same energy as one gallon of gas out of Ethanol. Kind of like
buying a bushel of seed corn then working one's ass off to plant then harvest it
and only get one bushel of corn back.

Max,

Here is the figures from the Dept of Ag;
These figure are for Corn Cellular is even better, with less emissions

Ethanol; working now

Ethanol has a positive energy balance, meaning the ethanol yields more
energy than it takes to produce it. It is an efficient fuel made through
an efficient process.
It takes less than 35,000 BTUs of energy to turn corn into ethanol,
while the ethanol offers at least 77,000 BTUs of energy. Ethanol's
energy balance is clearly positive.
Research studies from a variety of sources have found ethanol to have a
positive net energy balance. The most recent, by the U.S. Department of
Agriculture, shows that ethanol provides an average net energy gain of
at least 77%.

One faulty, outdated study shows ethanol's net energy balance to be
negative. That research uses fundamentally flawed, decades old data that
is not valid considering today's efficiencies in agriculture and in
ethanol

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Pleeeese Robert,

How much energy is consumed to discover, recover, transport, refine
and sell oil ?

The cost is now at a point to encourage new sources, the politic of the
day is just the icing on the cake.

The world consumes 1480 Barrels of oil per second.

Capt. Suzy
35s5
NY

1480 Barrels per second!

I do believe that would fall under the heading; ADDICTION!

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage