"Thom Stewart" wrote
Vito,
I'd like to remind you that this whole OT discussion started about "High
Price Of Imported oil" I must be missing something in your Posts. I'm
not sure you have ever addressed the problem of dependence on foreign
imported oil.

Sorry you missed it.

Ethanol requires high compression engines to burn efficiently - to get decent
gas mileage. So does high octane (rated) gasoline. Such engines make more NOx,
so EPA effectively banned them circa 1970. Gas mileage in comparable cars
dropped about 40%! It follows that we could reduce our oil consumption by that
same 40% , very nearly eliminating our need to import oil, by simply rescinding
that EPA rule. But the trade off would be more NOx. OK?

Ethanol has a very high equivalent octane rating, meaning that it requires even
higher compression engines to burn efficiently. Thus an equivalent family sedan
burning E85 *efficiently* will produce the same NOx as a gasoline engine because
the NOx comes from compressing and heating the air, not from the fuel. So, if
we are going to accept more NOx in order to burn E85, then why not do the same
and burn alot less gasoline??

OTOH, if more NOx is NOT acceptable, then E85 cars in the USA will get crappy
mileage - 1.5 times poorer than gasoline in low compression engines and over 2x
poorer than gas in efficient engines. That means it will take as much or more
ENERGY to produce enough E85 to move a car XXX miles than we get back. Where
will that energy come from? Foreign oil?? Coal? Nuclear fuel? If so we may
as well go to electric cars.

You haven't, as yet, address todays Ethanol technology production of
Cellulosic Ethanol. Vito, if we are using switchgrass to make Ethanol,
it cost us nothing to grow Corn! Switchgrass is a Perennial and doesn't
need to be plowed or planted, just cut like Hay. It will grow on very
poor soil, where food crops can't grow. The same can be said for Popular
trees, sugar cane stalks, even urban wastes. This also produces enough
heat to Co-Gen Electricity.

Just like hay, eh?

Is switchgrass native to the USA? If not, what will introducing 1000s upon
1000s of acres of it do to our native species of grasses and our ecology? Is it
any better than native grass? That aside ....

Have you ever made hay? It requires much more manual labor than corn. Where
will that labor come from? Illegal aliens?

Nor does hay grow free as you seem to think. Like a lawn it requires touch-up
reseeding and plenty of fertilizer - made from oil! Then it must be dried in the
field before it can be bailed for storage. During that time it must be raked and
turned over several times so it dries evenly and if it rains during that time
the crop may be ruined. Alternately, the grass can be cut and ensiled wet,
which is prolly better for ethanol production. But that takes as much energy as
harvesting corn silage. I've farmed both hay and corn. Without doing a lot of
research I believe it would be cheaper, both financially and energy wise, to
grow corn than hay for the same ethanol yield.

In the USA we grow corn for silage as well as grain. There is little or no
waste. Corn grown for grain is genetically engineered to produce little or no
waste. By the time it is dry enough to harvest, and has been "combined", there
isn't much stalk, leaves or cob left to get ethanol from and what is left is
needed by the soil as fertilizer. Silage corn is cut wetter but is much more
difficult and energy consuming to harvest, transport and store than grain.
Based on the figures you and others have provided, I sincerely doubt you could
get enough ethanol out of corn or hay, grown for that purpose, to run the
machines neded to produce it.

Other countries have different situations. You (?) pointed out that one of them
had tons of sugar cane as a waste after the sugar is extracted but now use that
waste to make ethanol, getting back a gallon for every 0.7 gallons used. Gee,
that's great. But I don't know any US equivlent to that waste except perhaps
feed lot manure. Could it be used to make more ethanol than required for
production?

Vito, I've heard it said that swtchgrass growing on unusable land could
free us from foreign imported oil.

I've heard that Jesus Christ is coming to save us too - but I'm not holding my
breath for either one.

As far as emissions; probably the same as gasoline but some 85% less.
Even if we burn another 1/2 gallon for the same energy, the emissions
are still less, plus its "MADE IN AMERICA"

Sorry, but that simply does not compute. Back in the late 1960's we were told
that low compression engines produced fewer emissions too. And that proved true
if by "emissions" you meant NOx emissions. But it meant a lot more of other
emissions per mile driven! Obviously, the ethanol evangelists are using the
same math. If we burn 1.5 gallons of ethanol to do the same work as 1 gallon of
gasoline now (or 0.6 gallons if EPA died on the spot) then it is hard to believe
that i going to make less smoke. 85% less of what??

Might as well pray.