Sailing and Cars
 

Pearls of wisdom & swine.....

In article , Mys Terry
wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 00:59:34 +0100, Peter Wiley
wrote:

In article , Mys Terry
wrote:

On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:15:46 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
...
In article , Frank
Boettcher wrote:

On Tue, 09 May 2006 04:17:36 +0100, Peter Wiley
wrote:

In article et,
Maxprop wrote:


You might try Vermont--I hear they love Subarus up there,
especially
those
horrid things with the flat-four engines.

Umm, Max - every Subaru I've ever seen has had either a flat 4 or a
flat 6. Do they sell something else in the USA?

Vested interest - I have a Liberty AWD sedan (Legacy to you guys) and
I
like it. It starts, runs, is comfortable and reasonably quiet. Mileage
is OK and at 230K, I expect to get at least another 100K out of it
yet.
Never seen a Tribeca here but from the pix, looks a bit better than a
WRX. That's damning with faint praise :-)

PDW


Kilometers?

Well, of course. Doesn't everyone use the metric system?

The USA began the switch to the metric system some decades back, but gave
up
the idea due to cost. Too bad. Now we have both systems--British and
metric, and I have to have two sets of wrenches and sockets, not to
mention
speedometers that read in both systems.

Max


We do not use "British" and Metric. We use S.A.E. and metric. The British
came
up with a system that is worse than their teeth or their cusine, known as
"Whitworth".

Actually an engineer named Whitworth came up with Whitworth, known as
British Standard Whitworth later on.

How does ths differ from what I said?

SAE - society of American
Engineers - was a Johnny come lately and they *still* managed to create
1/2-13, which has to take the prize for one of the most stupid thread
pitches of all time.

It's sort of the metric system expressed in fractions.

Wrong, but that's expected.


Not wrong, but I'm eagerly waiting for your "better" explanation. I think my
explanation was perfectly acceptable, especially given the ignorant audience,
you included.




Terry & Skipper, Clearlake Texas

Sailing and Cars
 

Good to see that you can use Google. OTOH I *have* Machinery's Handbook
and other pubs on my bookshelf, and have personally machined variants
of all common thread systems on my lathe - which is why I have a
particular hatred for 1/2-13. Prime numbers are a bitch.

You're wrong about BSW being any sort of derivative of metric except
insofar as *any* thread pitch system can be considered as a derivative
of or conversion of any other one. Whitworth was developed
independently of and IIRC in advance of any std metric system. It
certainly was developed well in advance of SAE.

PDW

In article , Mys Terry
wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 00:59:34 +0100, Peter Wiley
wrote:

In article , Mys Terry
wrote:

On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:15:46 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
...
In article , Frank
Boettcher wrote:

On Tue, 09 May 2006 04:17:36 +0100, Peter Wiley
wrote:

In article et,
Maxprop wrote:


You might try Vermont--I hear they love Subarus up there,
especially
those
horrid things with the flat-four engines.

Umm, Max - every Subaru I've ever seen has had either a flat 4 or a
flat 6. Do they sell something else in the USA?

Vested interest - I have a Liberty AWD sedan (Legacy to you guys) and
I
like it. It starts, runs, is comfortable and reasonably quiet. Mileage
is OK and at 230K, I expect to get at least another 100K out of it
yet.
Never seen a Tribeca here but from the pix, looks a bit better than a
WRX. That's damning with faint praise :-)

PDW


Kilometers?

Well, of course. Doesn't everyone use the metric system?

The USA began the switch to the metric system some decades back, but gave
up
the idea due to cost. Too bad. Now we have both systems--British and
metric, and I have to have two sets of wrenches and sockets, not to
mention
speedometers that read in both systems.

Max


We do not use "British" and Metric. We use S.A.E. and metric. The British
came
up with a system that is worse than their teeth or their cusine, known as
"Whitworth".

Actually an engineer named Whitworth came up with Whitworth, known as
British Standard Whitworth later on. SAE - society of American
Engineers - was a Johnny come lately and they *still* managed to create
1/2-13, which has to take the prize for one of the most stupid thread
pitches of all time.

It's sort of the metric system expressed in fractions.

Wrong, but that's expected.


--Wrong?

--"For this reason, it is imperative that a set of Whitworth wrenches are
--purchased before working on any antique British machinery – otherwise,
expect
--rounded-off hexes and busted knuckles, trademarks of the careless
craftsman."


--Read further, smarty-pants


************************************************** ****************************
******
Most, if not all, British cars, motorcycles, airplanes and machinery up the
1970s – and possibly beyond – used Whitworth thread forms. Sir Joseph
Whitworth
was born in 1803 in Stockport, a grimy area of the industrial north west of
England. Coincidently, not too far from where this writer was born. After
leaving school at the age of 14, Whitworth pursued various engineering
opportunities until 1833 when he started his own tool making business. In 1841
he presented a paper before the Institute of Civil Engineers where he
introduced
his revolutionary thread system. Up to this time no conventions existed for
screw threads. During this presentation, Whitworth also introduced a standard
system of gages which was widely accepted. Size for size, a Whitworth thread
is
stronger than its SAE counterpart. This is partly due to the radiused corners
designed into the Whitworth thread which reduces the possibility of a stress
riser.

Whitworth’s talents did not go unnoticed by the British military. In the mid
1850s, rifling of gun barrels was in its infancy, at least for the British.
Rifling of gun barrels was known since the 1520 to 1525 time frame.
Interestingly, rifling became accepted in small arms long before it was for
larger guns, and the result, in the Whitworth period, was that rifle-equipped
sharpshooters could pick off artillery crews from beyond the effective range
of
that artillery! Consequently, there was something of a panic to shrink the
artillery’s circular error. In the States, rifling was introduced during the
civil war. Not only was it a very tricky machining operation, but much
experimentation was required to arrive at the ideal helix angle and depth of
rifling in order to optimize these new design features. After optimization of
these design features, Whitworth developed the tooling required to mass
produce
rifled gun barrels. Of course, screw threads follow a similar convention to
gun
barrel rifling. Being the consummate engineer, Whitworth made many other
engineering advances including the art of casting and forging. After starting
from very humble beginnings, he died in Monte Carlo in 1887 a very wealthy
man.
His legacy lived on for the best part of a century in the form of the screw
thread that bore his name and various scholarships.

Like U.S. threads, three families of threads were developed; a miniature
series
known as BA or British Association, a coarse thread series known as BSW or
British Standard Whitworth and a fine thread series known as BSF or British
Standard Fine. The U.S. equivalents would be the Unified Thread System,
formally
known as the American Standard but renamed in 1949.



i) The SAE number series would be equivalent to the BA series

ii) SAE UNC or Unified National Coarse is the counterpart to BSW

iii) and SAE UNF Unified National Fine is equivalent to BSF.



Just to confuse things even more is the fact the miniature thread sizes are in
reverse. In other words, with the SAE convention, the larger the number the
larger the bolt size. Naturally, the British go in reverse, the lower the
number, the larger the bolt size so “0 BA" is the largest and “16 BA” is the
smallest. (Yeah, I know, go figure..!!) To put things in perspective, a 10-32
is roughly equivalent to a 2BA.



There is, in fact, method to this madness. Peter Bready points out that "The
BA
size numbers are actually functional in generating the pitch of the fasteners;
and the diameters are derived from the pitches." According to British
Standard
BS 93 - 1951, the basic sizes in millimeters for pitch and major diameter are
rounded off in each case to the second significant figure after calculation
from
the formulae given below:



The pitches, in millimeters, are calculated from the formula
p = (0.9)n

************************************************** ***************************
Did they just say MILLIMETERS? Isn't that the METRIC SYSTEM?
************************************************** **************************
where "n" is the number designating the size of the thread. Thus, for BA #0,
(0.9)0 = 1, and the pitch is 1.0mm


The basic major diameters are calculated from the formula
D = 6 p6/5
And the diameter is 6 x (1.0)6/5 = 6mm.


Whitworth wrench sizes are another source of considerable confusion. With the
more familiar UNF, UNC etc., the number stamped on the wrench or socket is the
dimension of the hexagonal bolt head measured across the flats. Whitworth
wrench
sizes indicate the size of the bolt, i.e., a wrench required for a 1/4 BSW
bolt
will have “1/4W” stamped on it. The wrench required for the equivalent ¼ UNC
has
“7/16" stamped on it, this being the dimension across the flats of the
hexagonal
bolt-head. To further confuse things, Whitworth hexs’ are NOT the same size as
the equivalent UNC/UNF -- they are larger. For this reason, it is imperative
that a set of Whitworth wrenches are purchased before working on any antique
British machinery – otherwise, expect rounded-off hexes and busted knuckles,
trademarks of the careless craftsman.



The derivation of Whitworth wrench sizes is another obscure mystery. From a
Jaguar enthusiasts' site

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xk-lovers/...th_system.html "...the hex
sizes were originally governed by the commercially available steel hex bar
stock
sizes, in the days before automated screw machines, when nuts and bolts were
cut
from hex bar stock."



Bill Allan adds "It should also be stated that some of the early nuts would
have
been machined from round stock, with an integral washer, so round bar stock
sizes would have been involved in calculations. One other problem is that the
original Whitworth heads (AF) were too large relative to the actual bolt
shank,
(that's why spanners/wrenches are the length/size they a so you can't apply
to much torque. In the first part of the 20th Century, the head sizes were
reduced to the size one below. (British Standards specify that the AF
measurement of any bolt not be greater than 1.75 that of the shank: 1/4 inch
Whitworth is almost bang on the button) This causes even more problems when
you
need replacement Whitworth fasteners, for machinery over a 100 years old. It's
also the reason why some old spanners/wrenches have two Whitworth numbers on
them."



Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW or BSF nuts can
be
screwed on UNF or UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances should this
practice even be considered. Most of the coarse threads share the same threads
per inch which means BSW nuts can be screwed onto UNC bolts and vice-versa.
The
exception to this being ½ inch -- ½ inch BSW is 12 threads per inch and ½ inch
UNC is 13 threads per inch. Again, it must be emphasized that this practice
should not be a consideration. Whitworth and UNC/UNF thread forms differ
greatly, the primarily one being the thread angle (see illustrations). BSW and
BSF feature a 55 degree thread angle (47 ½ degrees for BA) and UNC/UNF threads
feature a 60 degree thread angle. Consequently, if these fasteners are
interchanged, considerable loss of holding force, fatigue resistance and
strength will result. Unfortunately, this author has seen examples of
mechanics
-- unaware the these subtleties -- mixing fasteners at will -- gee, if it
screws on it must be okay..!! (Scary thought).



The standard tapered pipe thread in the US is the NPT or National Pipe Thread.
The British use the BSP or British Standard Pipe thread. Although similar,
again, they should NOT, under any circumstances, be interchanged. The sad part
of this thread confusion is the fact so many classic British cars,
motorcycles,
and yes, even airplanes have been butchered over the years by those not
conversant with these thread systems.

The foregoing is a very brief introduction to the complex world of screw
threads
and by no stretch of the imagination does it include all the families of
threads
a restorer may run into. For more detailed information, consult Machinery’s
Handbook.



Whitworth wrenches and sockets are available through most clubs that cater to
Brit cars. It’s also a good idea to get a set of taps and dies to fix the
screw-ups of those who have gone before you in the vain attempt to convert,
intentionally or otherwise, to SAE format. Another point worth keeping in mind
are the fasteners themselves. Several outfits sell so-called Whitworth hardware.
Turns out that often times this hardware has SAE sized hexes with Whitworth
thread forms. Sounds as though people are simply making these fasteners from
blanks intended for SAE threads. Again, the correct fasteners are available. I
know that the Rolls-Royce Owner’s Club has a good selection – but be prepared
for sticker shock.




Terry & Skipper, Clearlake Texas

Sailing and Cars
 

They never sound overly "bright," and I think you were referring to
"presence" with your term "forward." Yes, they have presence, but
restrained.



You probably can't hear the brightness anymore, nor could I. But all of
the high end B&Ws are designed with a bright high end for detail
extention. It's up to the user to either preverve that or kick it down
via "softer" electronics. B&W wisely chose this route, but it can cause
trouble in some rooms. Much like a large studio monitor, the 802 is a
forward sounding speaker, more so than flagships from Thiel or Martin
Logan. This is NOT a bad thing, just a style presentation B&W prefers.


RB
35s5
NY

Sailing and Cars
 

"Scotty" wrote
I, along with many of my friends have owned / ridden /
wrenched on many a Triumph / BSA / Norton and none of us
ever had ''Whitworth tools''.

yeah, those Whitworth Phillips head screws used to get
rounded pretty quick.

Y'all must be very young. By the 1960s Britian had adopted (BSS?) bolts using
US wrench sizes but with slightly different thread shapes. However, a few
Whitworth sizes were still found on accessories like carburettors, dampners and
dynamos. Six-point US box wrenches would fit all but a couple of them OK.

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote
Scotty doesn't even realize that the phillips head screws on BSA's
were, in fact, Whitworth screws. After he would strip the head, he
probably had a little trouble trying to force those SAE or Metric
threaded replacements into the Whitworth threaded holes.

They may not have been Phillips - there is a similar pattern that uses a
screwdriver with a sharper point (Reed & Prince??). If you use the latter
screwdriver on a Phillips screw you will strip the head slots because the point
doesnt allow the driver blades to fully engage the screw head slots. No need to
ask how I know this or why I like to replace the Phillips screws in my bikes
with Allen screws.

Sailing and Cars
 

"Maxprop" wrote
The bike came set up with a Delorto race carb, you ignorant ass. It was a
flattracker, not some idiot's street toy.

Ahhh ... don't you mean Delsnorto? Did it have Cherry Annie forks?

Sailing and Cars
 

"Maxprop" wrote
It was built by a gifted technician in Toronto and raced by a friend for
four seasons prior to my acquisition of it. I've never seen a box-stock
Gold Star in my life. How in hell would I know anything about stock carbs?

By being born sooner grin. It was a GP pattern Amal.

My Spitfire and 441 Victor, and the Triumph all had stock carbs, but I have
absolutely no recollection of what carbs they had. ...

If the Spit was a '66 it too had GP pattern Amals. After that the Spit was a
Lightning with the small tank and used regular "street" Amals which had idle
circuits and integral float bowls. IIRC the Vic did too.

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...


The older BSA's used the Amal Monoblock. They later
progressed to the
Concentric.


Ain't Google wonderful?

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote

We do not use "British" and Metric. We use S.A.E. and
metric. The British came
up with a system that is worse than their teeth or
their cusine, known as
"Whitworth".

Actually an engineer named Whitworth came up with
Whitworth, known as
British Standard Whitworth later on.

How does ths differ from what I said?

It's coherent.

Sailing and Cars
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Maxprop" wrote
The bike came set up with a Delorto race carb, you
ignorant ass. It was a
flattracker, not some idiot's street toy.

Ahhh ... don't you mean Delsnorto? Did it have Cherry
Annie forks?

I have a '69 Bonneville with 'Cherries' in my barn.

Sorry, but I don't know the carb #s.

Scotty

Sailing and Cars
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Scotty" wrote
I, along with many of my friends have owned / ridden
/
wrenched on many a Triumph / BSA / Norton and none of
us
ever had ''Whitworth tools''.

yeah, those Whitworth Phillips head screws used to get
rounded pretty quick.

Y'all must be very young. By the 1960s Britian had
adopted (BSS?) bolts using
US wrench sizes but with slightly different thread shapes.
However, a few
Whitworth sizes were still found on accessories like
carburettors, dampners and
dynamos. Six-point US box wrenches would fit all but a
couple of them OK.


And anybody who's ridden / wrenched on them would know this,
unlike BB, who's limited knowledge comes from Google
searches.

Scotty

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:45:30 -0400, "Scotty"

wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
.. .


The older BSA's used the Amal Monoblock. They later
progressed to the
Concentric.


Ain't Google wonderful?



If you can find that information using google, please post
a link so
others can learn something that I already knew from
experience.

Maybe you can also find a link to a website explaining how
SAE and
Metric wrenchs are "just fine" for use on Whitworth
fasteners.


Unlike you, I don't need to use Google. I have real world
experience.

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message


And anybody who's ridden / wrenched on them would know
this,
unlike BB, who's limited knowledge comes from Google
searches.


Scotty has already said that he and his friends had never
even heard
of Whitworth until I mentioned it. Fitting a fastener
"okay" is not
how good mechanics do things.


Liar! Show where I said that or you've screwed the pooch,
again.

Sailing and Cars
 

Mys Terry wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:45:30 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
.. .


The older BSA's used the Amal Monoblock. They later
progressed to the
Concentric.


Ain't Google wonderful?



If you can find that information using google, please post a link so
others can learn something that I already knew from experience.

Maybe you can also find a link to a website explaining how SAE and
Metric wrenchs are "just fine" for use on Whitworth fasteners.

Whitworth, is a thread standard, it defines the shape of the
thread,(thread form). It is not metric. The standard also defines the
size and shape of bolt heads and nut forms, it is not metric either. The
head sizes do not conform to normal SAE tools or Metric tools in some
cases. Most mechanics refer to these as BSW (British Standard
Whitworth) and BSF (British Standard Fine), the do not call them
"Whitworth" wrenches.

Cheers
Marty

Sailing and Cars
 

"BB" the dickhead wrote......


Scotty has already said that he and his friends had
never
even heard
of Whitworth until I mentioned it.


"HEARD OF " ?



I, along with many of my friends have owned / ridden /
wrenched on many a Triumph / BSA / Norton and none of us
ever had ''Whitworth tools''.


" HAD " As in owned, NOT 'HEARD OF".


BAM!! BUSTED!!!! Again!

Bwahahahahahahahahahah

SV

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

: P

Sailing and Cars - bsa_440_victor_grand prix_ 1966
 

Using BB's technique, I Googled ''BSA''. First sight had
this on.

From, http://www.bsaoc.demon.co.uk/post1960.html

1966 BSA
Model CC

B40 STAR 350 cc
B40 STAR 350 cc
B44 VICTOR GRAND PRIX 440 cc
B44 VICTOR ENDURO 441 cc
A50R ROYAL STAR 500 cc
A50W WASP A50W 500 cc



WHAM BAM!!!

RUN poochie, RUN!!!

SV

PS, sorry, no pics.



"Mys Terry" wrote in message
Brother to the Shooting Star is the Victor Special 441
C.C. :production version
of the world famous champion. The Motto cross world
championship proved that ,
Victor won it. twice in a row .And if that isn't proof
enough, John Banks,
British Moto Cross champion in 1969, also won the 1969
B.B.C .Grandstand Trophy
and the I.T.V. world of sport series on a Victor. So you
can expect some pretty
smooth riding over the rough stuff, and some advanced
features to go with it.
competition tank, square finned alloy cylinder barrel,
upswept exhaust system
and competition tested forks.

photo attached


Terry & Skipper, Clearlake Texas

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Wha, you weren't a biker chick in the '70s?

Scotty


"katy" wrote in message
...
: P

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Scotty wrote:
Wha, you weren't a biker chick in the '70s?

Scotty


"katy" wrote in message
...
: P


No way...I was a horse show chick in the 70's....

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Mys Terry wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 12:19:59 -0400, katy
wrote:

Scotty wrote:
Wha, you weren't a biker chick in the '70s?

Scotty


"katy" wrote in message
...
: P

No way...I was a horse show chick in the 70's....

You do resemble Mr. Ed, now that you mention it!


Edwina...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?

Best Cabin Gun:
http://www.verney-carron.us/images/s...a-compact2.gif
Stainless and plastic.

Best for shooting wheelhouse to wheelhouse:
http://www.fidnet.com/~m26/a2shortya1.jpg
Master blaster

Best waterline shrimpboat hole puncher
http://stevethepirate.net/wp-content...nfield_01l.jpg
Punch is right!

Best Rat Rifle
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/7875/remington550-1.jpg
Easy head shots at 50 paces

Best pocket pistol
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1903ph_132831.gif
hammerless! Stainless!

Nice all around pistol :
http://www.thevietnam-database.co.uk/Guns/M1911.jpg
Great collectors item, price continues to rise Keep the box and wax
paper!

Joe

Sailing and Cars
 

Mys Terry wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:01:44 -0400, Martin Baxter
wrote:

Most mechanics refer to these as BSW (British Standard
Whitworth) and BSF (British Standard Fine), the do not call them
"Whitworth" wrenches.

Cheers
Marty

Are you SURE?

http://www.britishfasteners.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=4010&Categor y_Code=400&Product_Count=22

Sorry, got it a bit wrong, they call them BA spanners, (it's been twenty
years since my dad, an English Class A automechanic died. I still have
his tools, (Britool), if I recall they measure the size of the bolt in
two ways; AF, accross the flats (like SAE does) of from apex to apex, I
can't remember what letters get stamped on the end of the wrench in that
case, I think it may be BSF.

Cheers
Marty

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?


Water pistols...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Potato guns

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?


Water pistols...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Water Pistols...


Get a glock 17

The Glock 17 can be fired underwater using special ammunition and a
special
pair of spring cups that allow water to pass by them through the firing
pin
channel.

Just about any handgun will fire underwater -- at least once. :-)
However,
firing underwater is NOT recommended because it can have devastating
effects
on the pistol and the shooter -- a potentially dangerous activity that
should
only be utilized by trained personnel wearing proper equipment for
protection
against potential pressure wave effects of underwater detonation. The
shock/pressure
waves in water can really damage internal organs (ever heard of
lithotripsy?).

Shooting a pistol underwater can lead to property damage, serious
bodily
injury or even death.


NOTE: Glock, Inc., specifically disclaims any and all liability from
anyone
performing or attempting to perform underwater firing with a Glock
pistol --
you do so at your own risk.

The Glock 17 may be equipped with an optional set of maritime spring
cups
for use in water environments. Maritime spring cups are not intended
for
submerged firing, but for surface use by special ops teams who operate
in and around
water. The maritime spring cups are two small parts within the firing
pin
assembly and are not included on any Model 17 sold by Glock (civilians
can
only get them through 3rd parties). They insure that water can pass by
the firing
pin within the firing pin channel, thus preventing the creation of
hydraulic
force within the firing pin channel -- which would slow the firing pin
down,
causing light primer strikes. With the special cups, the action will
cycle
reliably while submersed, if a little bit slower. NATO specification
ammunition (such as Winchester's Ranger RA9124N) with waterproof sealed
primers and
case mouths is recommended.

Although you may install the maritime spring cups on any Glock model,
*only*
the Glock 17 was designed and intended to use the modified spring cups
for
aquatic firing -- and only then using 9mm ball ammunition to remain
within
acceptable pressure limits. The foolhardy who insist on living
dangerously
must keep several things in mind: The Glock 17 must be fully submersed
underwater.

There must not be any air left within the pistol as the muzzle is
pointed
towards the surface of the water after submersion to allow the air in
the
barrel to escape. Use only full metal jacket, ball-type ammunition
because
the water within the barrel can spread a hollow point out within the
barrel upon
firing. This increases the bearing surface of the bullet to the barrel
and
could catastrophically increase pressures. Even if the barrel doesn't
burst,
the expanded bullet would get even bigger upon exiting into the water
and
would slow down very quickly while tumbling. Accuracy would be
terrible.
The marinized Glock 17 is primarly for use by various Special Warfare
units
operating in aquatic environments. At least one specialized Scuba
diving
group regularly uses G17's to dispatch sharks where they dive. The
Glock 17 using
NATO specification ball ammunition will completely penetrate a minimum
of
one 1/2" pine board at a distance of ten feet from the muzzle when
fired
underwater.

Trained personnel who use Glocks underwater know they must obey several

rules:
1) use only a Glock Model 17 with amphibious spring cups (reliablity
issue);
2) use only 9mm FMJ subsonic, sealed primer ammo;
3) completely immerse the pistol and get *all* the air out of the
barrel;
4) wear protective ear plugs, gloves, wet suit, face mask, etc.;
5) do not fire near solid objects or in enclosed spaces to prevent
return
concussion.
However, any Glock -- even those not equipped with maritime spring cups
--
will normally fire while submersed underwater. But doing so may
generate
excessive internal pressure and may cause the pistol to literally blow
up. This is
especially true with the use of high-pressure rounds (such as the .40
S&W/357 SIG) or hollow-point bullets.

I recall a reported incident where a Glockster on a boating holiday
decided
to show some friends how his Glock would fire underwater (because Tommy
Lee
Jones said so in the movies). He stuck his hand overboard, pulled the
trigger and
came back with a bunch of shredded plastic and a badly injured hand.
Another reported case was the Glockster who decided to try out his
Glock 23
..40 S&W in the swimming pool after seeing pictures of Glocks being
fired
underwater on the web. He was totally submerged, with the gun, as he
fired at a piece
of wood on the bottom of his pool. The Glock did fire, the .40 S&W FMJ
round
left the barrel and went into the wood. The chamber also exploded and
implanted
shrapnel into his leg. Thinking that the water would muffle the blast,
he
did not wear hearing protection (the blast is actually about 4 times
louder
underwater). He is now mostly deaf in one ear and hears high-pitched
tones
most of his waking life.

As you can see, firing a pistol underwater is a *very* dangerous
endeavor.
Several things could happen:
1) the firing pin may be slowed enough to not detonate the primer
(without the maritime spring cups)
2) the pistol could blow up in your hand;
3) the concussion could damage ears, eyes or internal organs;
4) the bullet may not go where you intend it to.

Even if you have the right equipment, know what you're doing and follow
the
rules -- the risks for underwater firing are minimized -- but not
eliminated. Your pistol's barrel could be affected by water obstruction
and your body by
damaging concussion. By using hollow point bullets (water may cause the

bullet to expand in the barrel), high pressure ammo, etc. -- you're
asking for an
underwater kaBoom! It you fire near solid or hard objects, the bouncing

concussion can cause extensive, perhaps even fatal external/internal
tissue
injury. Why risk it?

Joe

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

"katy" wrote:
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?


Water pistols...

Kewl. I had a battery powered one that shot 25' 250 shots
per minute! Kept the cats away.

Seahag

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Potato guns work for cats, and you only have to fire it one time.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Seahag" wrote in message
...

"katy" wrote:
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?


Water pistols...

Kewl. I had a battery powered one that shot 25' 250 shots per minute!
Kept the cats away.

Seahag

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Capt. JG wrote:
Potato guns work for cats, and you only have to fire it one time.

They can also remove teeth...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Cats? Oh, the potato gun. Yup, but you have to be supervised by an adult.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
Potato guns work for cats, and you only have to fire it one time.

They can also remove teeth...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

I want a tomato gun.

I hate tomatoes!

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Potato guns

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P

What kind of guns would you like to talk about?


Water pistols...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

Scotty wrote:
I want a tomato gun.

I hate tomatoes!

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Potato guns

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P
What kind of guns would you like to talk about?

Water pistols...



When we were kids, we lived next door to a large truck farmer...he
had about 5 acres in tomatoes...after picking time, what was left
just sat there...the neighborhood kids would go out and have tomato
fights with the over-ripe, soft, hot squishy tomatoes...

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
Potato guns work for cats, and you only have to fire it
one time.

They can also remove teeth...

You're not supposed to eat the ammo.

S

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...

Now your Victor has become a Gold Star. You also still need to explain how
you
bought it set up with a Delorto carb, and later installed a delorto carb
with a
custom manifold.

It's really not difficult for someone who possesses the ability to
comprehend what he reads. I had a Gold Star-based race bike, and I also
owned a Victor street bike. Both had Delorto carbs. The Victor had a
custom intake manifold that I purchased from a catalog. The Gold Star came
with the Delorto already installed. Perhaps it, too, was a custom manifold,
but I really didn't give enough of a **** to care at the time.


Partner: Pat Simmons - Doobie Brothers - Go ask him. You can also ask Dick
Smothers, who was not only a very good customer, but often hung around the
shop
trying to help the mechanics.

When I call up your good buddies, Pat Simmons and Dickie Smothers, what name
should I ask about? Certainly not that phoney one you've been posting at
the bottom. Do they know you as Barnacle Bill the Blowhard, too?

And I guess you had to tell them sheepishly that you had no idea!

We stared at them with an incredulous expression for about 10 seconds, then
turned away and resumed what we were doing when they rudely interrupted.

Good lord. We are supposed to believe this fairy tale? One minute you are
having
no trouble using metric tools on a British bike, then you install a
Delorto carb
that was already on the bike when you got it, but then the model changes
from a
Victor to a Gold Star and it had a stock carb. And now you claim that
even
though you were a "poor flat tracker" who had to do all his own work on
the
bike, you don't remember what those stock CARBS were, and you think that
would
be considered esoterica?

Apart from your lack of reading comprehension (the Gold Star race bike and
the Victor were actually two separate bikes--isn't that amazing) you've got
it right. So believe it. Or not. I couldn't care less.

Keep going. This is getting funnier and funnier with every new revelation.
Tell
us about the race you won with NO carb at all on the bike!

Sorry, but you'll just have to live with disappointment. Every bike had
carbs. You'll also have to debate this with yourself--it's become too
boring for my participation.



Max

Sailing and Cars - bsa_441_victor_special_1970_wb_gallery_.JPG (1/1)
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...

That was my street bike. Okay, I suppose it was called an enduro or
something like that, but it wasn't suitable for off-road use. Mine had
custom tank paint, but otherwise looked like the photo.

Max

Sailing and Cars
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article et,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

The clutch on my Liberty was replaced at 160K, the CV joints at
180K. That's it, and while I bought it used, it has the full logbook
dealer service records.

That's pretty good for a Jeep Liberty, which overall has had a rather
dismal
reliability rating.

Subaru Liberty. Sold in the USA as a Legacy IIRC. Wouldn't have a Jeep
except as a gift. Useless excuse for a 4WD compared to a Toyota,
Nissan, Mitsubishi or almost anything except maybe a Lada.

I stand corrected. Never heard the term "Liberty" applied to a Subaru, but
you've explained that.

I agree--the last Jeep I owned was a 1964 CJ-5 with no top. It was perfect
for the fire roads in the Colorado Rockies where I lived in the mid-1970s.

Max

Sailing and Cars - bsa_440_victor_grand prix_ 1966
 

Wrong Robert...they made a 440.

Joe

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...


--"For this reason, it is imperative that a set of Whitworth wrenches are
--purchased before working on any antique British machinery - otherwise,
expect
--rounded-off hexes and busted knuckles, trademarks of the careless
craftsman."

Guess I was a careless craftsman, but never had a rounded-off hex head nor a
busted knuckle in all the years I used Metric and SAE tools on Whitworths.

Max

Sailing and Cars
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:15:21 -0400, "Vito" wrote:

"Maxprop" wrote
The bike came set up with a Delorto race carb, you ignorant ass. It was
a
flattracker, not some idiot's street toy.

Ahhh ... don't you mean Delsnorto? Did it have Cherry Annie forks?

No Cerianis, but the previous owner said they were Norton forks.

Max

Sailing and Cars
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...

Y'all must be very young. By the 1960s Britian had
adopted (BSS?) bolts using
US wrench sizes but with slightly different thread shapes.
However, a few
Whitworth sizes were still found on accessories like
carburettors, dampners and
dynamos. Six-point US box wrenches would fit all but a
couple of them OK.

Thank you. Did you read that, BB?

Max

Might As Well Be A Gun Thread....
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Scotty wrote:
I want a tomato gun.

I hate tomatoes!

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Potato guns

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in
message
...
Joe wrote:
katy wrote:
: P
What kind of guns would you like to talk about?

Water pistols...



When we were kids, we lived next door to a large truck
farmer...he
had about 5 acres in tomatoes...after picking time, what
was left
just sat there...the neighborhood kids would go out and
have tomato
fights with the over-ripe, soft, hot squishy tomatoes...

Don't they have a big annual tomato fight in some Italian
town?

Scotty