Bart Senior wrote:
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post.

There's little hope I can match your 100% record!

It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Did I say something incorrect?


Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also
sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one
of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints
with either.



My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.

Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps
you should have qualified your comments.


ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training
because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that
for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that
ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their
affiliation.


So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of
the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single
mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat
chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her
kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp.

I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did
it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few
hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50.

I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much
help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view,
claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous.


Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a
tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same
demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap
in this area they are "identical."


You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.

I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to
that implication now!


Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.

and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to
be a dolt? OK, if you insist.

I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore
I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican.



US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't
know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care
much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that
run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race
committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing,
its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational
sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that
were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their
national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is
focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small
boat training, especially for kids.

If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your
home state:
https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html
http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT


So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post;
the truth is:

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The
comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing
body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and
the ASA site never claims it.

USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies
use their materials is irrelevant.

USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different
organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem
obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the
work.

I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I
only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that
you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but
you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil
agenda.

snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative
merits to the two training programs


I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.


I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!

JP





"Jean Pudl" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!


Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.

Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!

I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force.

AMEN

"Bob Crantz" wrote

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force.

AMEN

"Bob Crantz" wrote

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!



There's a big difference between the military culture and "corporate"
culture.

There is a large degree of accountability in the military and if it doesn't
work out, you're out. The jobs rotate every two years.

In the corporate world, the employees(management) set the rules. The rules
are designed to protect their own positions. This type of structure attracts
weak people with personality disorders. The jobs can last for years and
fifedoms can be set up. The same goes with any large organization other than
the military. In other words, wierd dysfunctional people flourish in these
type of organizations. Anyone who applies logic, rationality and expects
integrity will soon be disappointed or even flushed out. Those who fail to
realize this will eventually suffer psychological damage to some degree. In
dealing with these organizations expect the worst and act upon their weak
spots or centers of gravity. Deal with people on their weaknesses, not their
strengths. It's not a mutual win-win, it's either you or them.

If you want sanity and integrity, find some small company or start your own
business.

Amen!

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
news

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound
reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to
relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in
contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.
I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in
contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats. I hold US Sailing's
keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.
I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training,
US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing
certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and
student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US
Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing
different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed
commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training
program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly
that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically
exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this
gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training
schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be
sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with
them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in
the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this
point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?


Have you ever heard of 'snipping'?

SV

No apology needed - a good time was had by all.

I wouldn't want to get into the middle of USSa/ASA discussion; then I
would truly make an ass of myself.

I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee
is. The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that
it was created by and for one group of schools because they didn't
want to pay ASA for an "official" piece of paper. Does this make any
difference to the student? Does it make any difference to the charter
companies? Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the
instructors who have to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both. Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much of that goes back to ASA or USSa?

As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic
Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must
be non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each
sport, and is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus
certain other functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the
organization the fits this role.

All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of
interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the
course with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits
which have the same mishigas, but its called "business."



Bart Senior wrote:
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

"Jean Pudl" wrote

I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee is.
The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that it was
created by and for one group of schools because they didn't want to pay
ASA for an "official" piece of paper.

Correct. It started with three school in the SF Bay area. The Training
Chairman owns one of these schools. He has several of the IT's on
his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there expenses and owns
their votes. One of them should be fired from his position as an IT
on ethics charges.

I have some hope the Training Chair will implement some changes.
However, nearly everything I've discussed with him has been brushed
off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at my expense just to be
ignored after I'm gone.

I dropped my membership and asked for my certification money back.
Which reminds me, I need to write them about that again. I'll have to
send it certified mail this time. They gave me a "screw you" on the
telephone when last I called them.

Does this make any difference to the student? Does it make any difference
to the charter companies?

Nope.

Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the instructors who have
to go through the process of being certified by one or the other, or both.
Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a basic keelboat course, how much
of that goes back to ASA or USSa?

Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They have to join to be competitive
now that the "Certification" paper is what they are selling. Students feel
the paper means something and don't understand it is the skills that are
important and the paper is meaningless.

Student fees include book costs, tests, and the log book. I'll can only
guess what the total is.

Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are forced to pay for insurance.
This is a scam since the schools already have insurance. bogUS Sailing
both claims this fee is both insurance and not for insurance, but insists
instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I lost my cool over this
last year. How can they say it is and that it isn't for insurance? What
hogwash! I want a written answer on this one.

When I signed up the only requirement for recertification was up to date
First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus insurance fee is attached.
Again, they say it is not for insurance, but that is what it pays for--so
that
is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out of them on that one. And
they won't put and answer down on paper either!


As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic
Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must be
non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each sport, and
is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus certain other
functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the organization the fits
this role.

I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and you get something for your
money--race committees. However, I refuse to take a Safety at Sea
seminar from someone who knows less about it than I, when I know
the reason they won't place people out of such things is because of
the profits they make on these courses. I'd prefer to race unofficially
and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on my boat, and offer to
take only it off if they pay me.

Did you know someone recently proposed raising the grievance fee
to raise more money at US Sailing? How could they even consider
such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there should not be any fee
associated with filing a grievance! Screw them. What a bunch of
asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about money, not about improving
the sport.

I agree with Doug that there is an appearance that they support
and recognize certain sailor that are "in". Those can do no wrong.
The more awards the heap on them, the more valuable they are to
the organization. It's like blowing up a balloon. There is little to
back it up but what was already there.

All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of
interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the course
with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits which have
the same mishigas, but its called "business."

I disagree. Such an organization should have a standard of excellence.

I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that actually represent
members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could then represent them
and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be first to sign my list?
I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd love to fight to make them
change the ridiculous way they operate. They are so inept.

I purposely don't know much about the keelboat
training because I think it's kind of goofy. But,
I'm 100% behind US SAILING's small boat training.
As the director of a sailing center, I require all
my instructors to have SBSI level I and all my
coaches to have level II. I know every aspect of
the training they've received.
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
:
: "Jean Pudl" wrote
:
: I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial"
sail training committee is.
: The impression I've had (based on little real
evidence) was that it was
: created by and for one group of schools
because they didn't want to pay
: ASA for an "official" piece of paper.
:
: Correct. It started with three school in the SF
Bay area. The Training
: Chairman owns one of these schools. He has
several of the IT's on
: his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there
expenses and owns
: their votes. One of them should be fired from
his position as an IT
: on ethics charges.
:
: I have some hope the Training Chair will
implement some changes.
: However, nearly everything I've discussed with
him has been brushed
: off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at
my expense just to be
: ignored after I'm gone.
:
: I dropped my membership and asked for my
certification money back.
: Which reminds me, I need to write them about
that again. I'll have to
: send it certified mail this time. They gave me a
"screw you" on the
: telephone when last I called them.
:
: Does this make any difference to the student?
Does it make any difference
: to the charter companies?
:
: Nope.
:
: Actually, it seems it only makes a difference
to the instructors who have
: to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both.
: Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much
: of that goes back to ASA or USSa?
:
: Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They
have to join to be competitive
: now that the "Certification" paper is what they
are selling. Students feel
: the paper means something and don't understand
it is the skills that are
: important and the paper is meaningless.
:
: Student fees include book costs, tests, and the
log book. I'll can only
: guess what the total is.
:
: Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are
forced to pay for insurance.
: This is a scam since the schools already have
insurance. bogUS Sailing
: both claims this fee is both insurance and not
for insurance, but insists
: instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I
lost my cool over this
: last year. How can they say it is and that it
isn't for insurance? What
: hogwash! I want a written answer on this one.
:
: When I signed up the only requirement for
recertification was up to date
: First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus
insurance fee is attached.
: Again, they say it is not for insurance, but
that is what it pays for--so
: that
: is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out
of them on that one. And
: they won't put and answer down on paper either!
:
:
: As to the "governing body" issue, this is a
byproduct of the Olympic
: Committee process, where one and only one
group (and I assume it must be
: non-profit) must be designated as the
governing body for each sport, and
: is responsible for the Olympic and
Pan-American teams, plus certain other
: functions. For better or worse, USSailing is
the organization the fits
: this role.
:
: I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and
you get something for your
: money--race committees. However, I refuse to
take a Safety at Sea
: seminar from someone who knows less about it
than I, when I know
: the reason they won't place people out of such
things is because of
: the profits they make on these courses. I'd
prefer to race unofficially
: and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on
my boat, and offer to
: take only it off if they pay me.
:
: Did you know someone recently proposed raising
the grievance fee
: to raise more money at US Sailing? How could
they even consider
: such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there
should not be any fee
: associated with filing a grievance! Screw them.
What a bunch of
: asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about
money, not about improving
: the sport.
:
: I agree with Doug that there is an appearance
that they support
: and recognize certain sailor that are "in".
Those can do no wrong.
: The more awards the heap on them, the more
valuable they are to
: the organization. It's like blowing up a
balloon. There is little to
: back it up but what was already there.
:
: All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back
stabbing, conflicts of
: interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc.
seem to be par for the course
: with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed
to for-profits which have
: the same mishigas, but its called "business."
:
: I disagree. Such an organization should have a
standard of excellence.
:
: I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that
actually represent
: members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could
then represent them
: and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be
first to sign my list?
: I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd
love to fight to make them
: change the ridiculous way they operate. They
are so inept.
:
:

I like and admire Rich too. My only beef with him, and
it is a big one, is he refused to document 151 days of
sea time I had with him in 1995 which delayed getting
my USCG license considerably. The reason being he
was afraid of the USCG. I was not the only one hurt by
that policy. Is it favoritism to document sea time only
for employees with USCG licenses? I think so. Equal
credit for equal work. That is fair. If he was worried
about the consequences he should have taken action
himself to clarify the matter with the USCG.

Other than that. I'll give credit where it is due. His school
is probably the best in the world. And his techniques are
the best for instruction--thoroughly refined and perfected.
I'd send my own family members to learn there.

US Sailing is, I'm told, working with the USCG to make
some changes to give exemptions to the licensing requirement
for sailing instructors. Frankly, I feel bogUS Sailing has
screwed up horribly by not having this done ten years ago,
given the problem was well known at that time. Frankly
I don't expect any progress in that area, because I've seen
nothing in print on the subject. Without documentation
there is never accountability.

If they can pay to lobby to be the "Governing Body of
the Sport, why can't they lobby to make important changes
that would benefit sailing instructors? It's because it won't
make them any money. An effort like this take a concerted
effort, constant pressure, public editorials, phone calls from
lots of people to make it happen--not one guy's part-time
effort. If I had the responsibility to make this happen I
could make it happen in one year. If I didn't I'd be working
to get someone fired in the USCG.

Lets watch. I'll bet nothing happens. Then will you agree that
bogUS Sailing is inept? Will you speak out about it to put
pressure on the subject? Ten years from now they will
still be talking about this and saying they are making progress.

Tell me Steve. Do you know who is paid at US Sailing? Do
you know how much they make? Have you seen an accurate
spreadsheet showing how all the money is spent? Why do they
hide this information? Why is it not displayed as a file on there
web site? Why are meeting minutes so terse?

Things I've been told about never show up in meeting minutes.
That is either proof they do not document things, or proof they
are not doing the things they claim to be doing.

I think their insurance is worth investigation. Why is there not
a more competitive process for insurance. They only have one
insurance provider. That smells like kickback to me.

One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should lose it's non-profit
status--because they do not represent their constituents.

I think I'll look up the tax laws on the subject. I'll bet I can
find an issue to support my assertion. Stirring the pot can only
improve bogUS Sailing and maybe it will make them into an
organization worth joining.


"NotPony" wrote
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.