Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post. It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.
ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.
Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.
I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

In the mid 1990's, a few sailing schools petitioned US
Sailing to add training to it's charter. US Sailing was
reluctant to accept this role. They left its organization up
to these same sailing school owners. This is part of the
reason this program has faults today.The owners of these
sailing schools dominate the training program--which means
a few profit motivated people--sailing school owners, and
their employees/instructors/stooges dominate decision making
in the area of sail training. The imply they hold all the
necessary expertise and no one else has anything to offer.
These people slapped something together and naturally they
think it is better that the ASA program--that does not make it
so.

Since you are knocking ASA you must belong to US Sailing
and believe all their party propaganda. Of course they want
you to believe US Sailing's sail training is better. Give them
ten more years and it might become true.

Right now, I can tell you for a fact that US Sailing has serious
weakness in it's keelboat training program. Specifically, ASA
is far superior in the area of instructor training.

I can give an unbiased viewpoint because I have taken part in
both training programs. I've also taught at five different sailing
schools over a period of 25 years.

I don't like ASA. I don't like US Sailing either. Neither group
treats their instructors well.

For the best introduction to boating and sailing I'd rate the US
Power Squadron courses as the best available. Their navigation
classes in particular are outstanding and the best in the nation.

However, ASA and US Sailing focus on practical training on
the water in keelboats--not power boats. So let us compare
them.

The courses offered? Both ASA and US Sailing have identical
course names, identical material, and they are viewed as
identical by charter companies. Charter companies only care
if you can anchor, motor, and dock, and that you have money
and the boat back in one piece. They don't care about
certifications. Both ASA and US Sailing have done a good
job convincing people that these are good things to have.
The reality is skills count--not the certification.

Both ASA and US Sailing took their course outlines from the
same source, the RYA. Of course the RYA thinks they are the
best--at least the RYA can justify this by virtue of doing this
sort of training longer than anyone else. I will concede the
RYA program is probably the best with the caveat that if the
courses are identical then the programs should be equated.

US Sailing cannot use RYA logic to claim it is the best in
the US because it hasn't been around as long as the ASA.
US Sailing is the newcomer in the US and this is why they
perform poorly in the area of instructor training. So what
can US Sailing do but repeatedly state that their standard
is better since they have no evidence to support this. If
they did, they would use it.

US Sailing Instructor Trainer's lack consistency. There
is fact no standard for their Instructor Trainers (ITs). For
years I've pushed US Sailing to develop a standard for their
IT's because I felt one of their IT's was grossly unqualified
and other has such divergent viewpoints that students were
left confused and disgusted.

I'm told a standard for US Sailing ITs is now under
development. I remain doubtful

One argument I've heard is the ASA never flunks an
instructor candidate. Perhaps this is true. My experience
was the instructor candidates were generally well qualified
and the ASA instructor trainers actually provided valuable
training during the course. I have seen US Sailing IT's
flunk candidates. In one case it was justified. I fault US
Sailing for accepting a candidate without the necessary
qualifications. In the other case the candidate should not
have been flunked. He was failed in a case in which the
root cause of the problem was the design of the boat he
was being evaluated on. Specifically, the Colgate 26 has
a tendency to stall the keel in certain situations. I fault the
instructor trainer in this case for not understanding the
characteristics of the boat being used for the evaluation.

While US Sailing is technically a Non-Profit, why then is it
they are trying to drive the ASA, out of business? Clearly US
Sailing sees itself as a For-Profit business if this is the case.

They make no effort to integrate their program with the ASA
program. They will not grant equivalency to ASA instructor
credentials because this undermines their own programs. This
self-serving attitude is to the detriment of sailing instructors
and favors sailing schools using the US Sailing certification
standard.

Perhaps someday the ASA will sue US Sailing. I would be
glad to testify that US Sailing Instructor Trainers make
this sort of statement often, without direct knowledge
or experience of the ASA instructor training program. I think
it would be an easy battle for the ASA to win in court.

From a students perspective, there is no difference between
ASA and US Sailing's Keelboat training programs.

Since US Sailing is driving away members, it claim to being
"the governing body of the sport", is laughable propaganda.

When asked, I will continue to tell my sailing students not to
join US Sailing unless they absolutely have to in order to
race; that they don't have to join if they are crew; and that
they don't have to enter a race officially, to participate.

I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.

"Jean Pudl" wrote
Bart Senior wrote:
Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!

Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.