US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-)

CM

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.


Jean Pudl wrote:
No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous
occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced.

How so?

I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and
didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA.

In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism cost
me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals, not the
whole organization.






So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!


That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference
is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money
is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community.


And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented'
boating community that ASA does not?

ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their
official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification
for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other
groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the
revenue potential and changed their minds.




.... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are
"identical" is ludicrous.


I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were
identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small difference
between certifications offered by them... which is true.




The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act
of Congress. That is a matter of fact.

Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging
protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a
"service."


... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the
Olympics,

In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to
their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.

The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by
cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing the
US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody murder.
Since then, it's been a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes
and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection
process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites.



...trains the race committees, etc.

Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race
committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible
big-headed tyrants for PROs.






USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.

And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of
recognition for their outstanding service to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state
of both the Congress and US Sailing.


The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their
extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a club
or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to benefit
ratio is totally out of whack IMHO.

I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying
sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet they
are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs! I've also
heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees to subsidize
small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are getting screwed.

BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.

If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the governing
body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's been downhill
since then.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

No apology needed - a good time was had by all.

I wouldn't want to get into the middle of USSa/ASA discussion; then I
would truly make an ass of myself.

I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee
is. The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that
it was created by and for one group of schools because they didn't
want to pay ASA for an "official" piece of paper. Does this make any
difference to the student? Does it make any difference to the charter
companies? Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the
instructors who have to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both. Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much of that goes back to ASA or USSa?

As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic
Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must
be non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each
sport, and is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus
certain other functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the
organization the fits this role.

All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of
interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the
course with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits
which have the same mishigas, but its called "business."



Bart Senior wrote:
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:45:07 -0700, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:49:52 -0700, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...


"Bob Crantz" wrote

I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!



I didn't write the above.

Amen!

But I did say "Great smackdown"

Amen!


If you want a REAL laugh at Bart's expense got to the website of the
FOR
PROFIT
sailing school where he teaches and look at who their instructors are
accredited
by (slogan and all) at the top of the home page.

http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/


I have no reason to laugh at Bart. He likes sailing and goes and teaches
it.
What's wrong with doing something for profit?

Amen!


There is nothing wrong with doing something for profit. Bart the
hypocrite was the one who said there was something wrong with US
Sailing being for profit. I'm just pointing out his hypocrisy and
dishonesty.

Hypocrisy is a no-no. Especially here. Bart should know better. Good work
Krusty!

Amen!

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:v8ATf.3660$nQ6.2357@clgrps13...
Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-)

Brutal, but true!

Amen!

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda.

DSK wrote:
....
I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced.

How so?

I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and
didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA.

So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national
organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and
interpret as they saw fit?


In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism
cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals,
not the whole organization.

No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you
were late in paying dues.



That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented'
boating community that ASA does not?

USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us
that in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why
shouldn't they be?



ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their
official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification
for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many
other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they
saw the revenue potential and changed their minds.

Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by
ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the
answer, But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this
area if there weren't people that wanted an alternative.

.... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are
"identical" is ludicrous.


I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were
identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small
difference between certifications offered by them... which is true.

The claim was that the two groups were "identical." What the intent
was is really only known be Bart. I was clarifying for the benefit of
reader who might believe the literal claim.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact.


Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging
protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a
"service."

Big deal, little deal, its the truth.

... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the
Olympics,

In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to
their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.

And that's not you, I'm guessing.


The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by
cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing
the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody
murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes
and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection
process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites.

And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse? You
can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or
corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming
with would be better off with nothing?


...trains the race committees, etc.


Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race
committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible
big-headed tyrants for PROs.

yada, yada, yada.

Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership
they want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you
should do something about it rather than whine here.

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.

And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of
recognition for their outstanding service to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the
state of both the Congress and US Sailing.

Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another
organization known for its fair dealings!

But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part.



The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their
extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a
club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to
benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO.

And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you.


I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying
sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet
they are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs!
I've also heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees
to subsidize small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are
getting screwed.

BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.


Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing.
(Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.)

If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the
governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's
been downhill since then.

Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations
are bad, then what is the alternative?

I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one.

Amen!


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:46:06 -0500, Jean Pudl said:

Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda.

If your only intention was to point out the errors, you've done that, so
you
can go home. The longer you rant on, the more it appears that you do
indeed
have an agenda other than simple truth.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Bob Crantz wrote:
Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations
are bad, then what is the alternative?

I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one.


Of course. Piece of cake for any logicl deconstrunctionist
above the novice level ;)

Options:
1- start a new & different organization
1a- arrogantly demand that every person owning a sailboat
must join... or else....

2- sail in a state of disorganization.

Glad I could help on this one.

FB- Doug

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Jean Pudl wrote:
Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda.


Well, you *have* made some value judgements.

As for evil agenda, if you don't have one, would you like
one? There are several available in the lobby.




So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national
organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and
interpret as they saw fit?


No, I'm saying that USSA has done a poor job. An
international body of sailing rules existed for a hundred
years or so before USSA came along, no doubt if USSA
withered & died then somehow we'd muddle along at least as
well without them until something better came along.



In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism
cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of
individuals, not the whole organization.


No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you
were late in paying dues.


Yep, that was the year I dropped out.

Guess what, my dues are about 8 years late now.



And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education
oriented' boating community that ASA does not?


USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us that
in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why shouldn't
they be?


If they are essentially the same, and ASA was there first,
then why did USSA get into it unless they had something
better to offer? And how do you know that they haven't
simply copied material and passed it off as their own?




ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their
official policy that they would rather not get involved in
certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there
were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power
Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds.


Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by
ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the answer,

I do. It was expressly stated by US Sailing. Same reason
that USYRU, one of their predecessor organizations, grabbed
control of windsurfing...

But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this area if
there weren't people that wanted an alternative.


Really?
What if they simply use already existing influence to force
people who don't want to change? Sort of like Microsoft?





Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging
protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a
"service."


Big deal, little deal, its the truth.


Glad we agree on something.


... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to
the Olympics,


In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to
their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.


And that's not you, I'm guessing.


Should it be? At one time I was a member of a fairly serious
team aimed for the Olympics. That was long enough ago that
the selection process was vastly different... and the money
was provided almost 100% by the contenders. Since then I
have always remained very interested in Olympic sailing and
remained friends with a lot of sailors in those venues.


The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by
cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing
the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody
murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great
athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the
selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing
favorites.


And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse?

Ah, no. It should have been obvious that I would prefer a
selection system based on performance in regattas.

Right now we have a "secret points" system whereby the
selection committee can pick anybody (maybe I can bribe them
into picking me?). Needless to say, they have a vested
interest in picking sailors who will do well, but many times
they also seem to give the cold shoulder... in selection
points & in money... to sailors who seem to win more
regattas than their picks.

The selection process should first of all be simple &
aboveboard. Secondly it should be decided ON THE WATER.


... You
can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or
corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming
with would be better off with nothing?


Actually, I'm not claiming they are any worse than
marginally competent, with a vested interest in tilting the
game certain ways & in gaining control of as much cash flow
as they can.

The sport of sailing is declining, and they whine about it
but don't seem to actually do much about it. Nor are they
willing to change any element of their grip on other
people's money.


yada, yada, yada.

Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership they
want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you should do
something about it rather than whine here.


I have done something about it.
I don't race as much, nor in as many different places. I
also have done a fair amount of Race Officer training and
helped shape programs at several different clubs, without
any assistance from USSA.

I suspect a fair percentage of the decline in sailing is
people like me who are not satisfied with the way the sport
has changed since the glory days & the boom years.


USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.


And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out
of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the
state of both the Congress and US Sailing.


Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another
organization known for its fair dealings!

But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part.


ASA has the limited purpose of offering certification to
cruising-oriented educational programs, both as a means of
providing additional & standardized material to the
instructors and an assurance of quality to the student.
That's all they do, that's all they want to do.

If the ASA started trying to grab control of sailboat
racing, I might be interested enough to attend some of their
events. They might do a better job.




The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid
their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason
why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The
cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO.


And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you.


Really? A lot of clubs & classes don't, which is another
thing that USSA constantly whines about.

USSA can't think of anything to do about it, other than to
try & extort them into joining by making events cost more
for them than for members.


BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.


Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing.
(Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.)


No doubt many are.

OTOH where do you think the shorter time frame for start
sequences came from?


If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the
governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's
been downhill since then.


Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem.


Yeah, that must be it.

DSK

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Bob Crantz wrote:
Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing
organizations are bad, then what is the alternative?

I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one.


Of course. Piece of cake for any logicl deconstrunctionist above the
novice level ;)

Options:
1- start a new & different organization
1a- arrogantly demand that every person owning a sailboat must join...
or else....

2- sail in a state of disorganization.

Glad I could help on this one.

FB- Doug



Good, but I was hoping for something along the lines of "false dilemma".

Amen!

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:47:39 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:

Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-)

CM


Smack down? It was a lengthy WHINE. Poor Doug lost some races, and of
course HE
couldn't be responsible! It must be those mean old US Sailing people. What
a
simpering wimp!

He smacked himself down with that one, Mooron.


Just out of Curiosity?? Since when... pray tell.... did you become
delusional enough to believe your opinion matters??

Seriously?!!!

CM