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Learning to sail the USA way.
Learning to sail the USA way.
The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. It is worth pointing out that these courses are not only available within the USA. Because it's fine reputation, recognised worldwide, many sailing companies across the globe offer these courses with the approval of the Association. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
"The Governing Body of Sailing". I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach. Tit for tat. Self-awarded titles are meaningless. "ARG" wrote in The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. .. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in
the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves "The Governing Body of Sailing". I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach. Tit for tat. Self-awarded titles are meaningless. "ARG" wrote in The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. . Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd! I wrote the RYA and asked what standards of these two groups they would accept and guess what, no answer. Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing.g "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves "The Governing Body of Sailing". I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach. Tit for tat. Self-awarded titles are meaningless. "ARG" wrote in The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. . Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
That's right. I know of only one for-profit in the bay area that is
certified by the RYA. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" wrote in message ... Both groups are virtually identical yet they don't accept each others standards! Absurd! I wrote the RYA and asked what standards of these two groups they would accept and guess what, no answer. Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing.g "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... We use books from both orgs in our classes. We use the USSailing books in the beginning classes, then move to the ASA books for the more advanced. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves "The Governing Body of Sailing". I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach. Tit for tat. Self-awarded titles are meaningless. "ARG" wrote in The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. . Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Bart Senior wrote:
Both groups are virtually identical yet they don't accept each others standards! Absurd! I wrote the RYA and asked what standards of these two groups they would accept and guess what, no answer. Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing.g Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years old. I can see why you think they're virtually identical. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post. It is easy to make hasty remarks that cannot be retracted. Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate. My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs. ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too bad they did not stay with their expertise. So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is funny! If you knew anything about sail training you would know that the "people" who take such courses span all age groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old. Empty-nester are the most common students. Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school students are identical to the clients of sailing schools following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point of your bizarre statement? You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts. Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have become fine sailors through their love of the sport. I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you has dropped yet another notch. US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone that the ASA standard is lower. In the mid 1990's, a few sailing schools petitioned US Sailing to add training to it's charter. US Sailing was reluctant to accept this role. They left its organization up to these same sailing school owners. This is part of the reason this program has faults today.The owners of these sailing schools dominate the training program--which means a few profit motivated people--sailing school owners, and their employees/instructors/stooges dominate decision making in the area of sail training. The imply they hold all the necessary expertise and no one else has anything to offer. These people slapped something together and naturally they think it is better that the ASA program--that does not make it so. Since you are knocking ASA you must belong to US Sailing and believe all their party propaganda. Of course they want you to believe US Sailing's sail training is better. Give them ten more years and it might become true. Right now, I can tell you for a fact that US Sailing has serious weakness in it's keelboat training program. Specifically, ASA is far superior in the area of instructor training. I can give an unbiased viewpoint because I have taken part in both training programs. I've also taught at five different sailing schools over a period of 25 years. I don't like ASA. I don't like US Sailing either. Neither group treats their instructors well. For the best introduction to boating and sailing I'd rate the US Power Squadron courses as the best available. Their navigation classes in particular are outstanding and the best in the nation. However, ASA and US Sailing focus on practical training on the water in keelboats--not power boats. So let us compare them. The courses offered? Both ASA and US Sailing have identical course names, identical material, and they are viewed as identical by charter companies. Charter companies only care if you can anchor, motor, and dock, and that you have money and the boat back in one piece. They don't care about certifications. Both ASA and US Sailing have done a good job convincing people that these are good things to have. The reality is skills count--not the certification. Both ASA and US Sailing took their course outlines from the same source, the RYA. Of course the RYA thinks they are the best--at least the RYA can justify this by virtue of doing this sort of training longer than anyone else. I will concede the RYA program is probably the best with the caveat that if the courses are identical then the programs should be equated. US Sailing cannot use RYA logic to claim it is the best in the US because it hasn't been around as long as the ASA. US Sailing is the newcomer in the US and this is why they perform poorly in the area of instructor training. So what can US Sailing do but repeatedly state that their standard is better since they have no evidence to support this. If they did, they would use it. US Sailing Instructor Trainer's lack consistency. There is fact no standard for their Instructor Trainers (ITs). For years I've pushed US Sailing to develop a standard for their IT's because I felt one of their IT's was grossly unqualified and other has such divergent viewpoints that students were left confused and disgusted. I'm told a standard for US Sailing ITs is now under development. I remain doubtful One argument I've heard is the ASA never flunks an instructor candidate. Perhaps this is true. My experience was the instructor candidates were generally well qualified and the ASA instructor trainers actually provided valuable training during the course. I have seen US Sailing IT's flunk candidates. In one case it was justified. I fault US Sailing for accepting a candidate without the necessary qualifications. In the other case the candidate should not have been flunked. He was failed in a case in which the root cause of the problem was the design of the boat he was being evaluated on. Specifically, the Colgate 26 has a tendency to stall the keel in certain situations. I fault the instructor trainer in this case for not understanding the characteristics of the boat being used for the evaluation. While US Sailing is technically a Non-Profit, why then is it they are trying to drive the ASA, out of business? Clearly US Sailing sees itself as a For-Profit business if this is the case. They make no effort to integrate their program with the ASA program. They will not grant equivalency to ASA instructor credentials because this undermines their own programs. This self-serving attitude is to the detriment of sailing instructors and favors sailing schools using the US Sailing certification standard. Perhaps someday the ASA will sue US Sailing. I would be glad to testify that US Sailing Instructor Trainers make this sort of statement often, without direct knowledge or experience of the ASA instructor training program. I think it would be an easy battle for the ASA to win in court. From a students perspective, there is no difference between ASA and US Sailing's Keelboat training programs. Since US Sailing is driving away members, it claim to being "the governing body of the sport", is laughable propaganda. When asked, I will continue to tell my sailing students not to join US Sailing unless they absolutely have to in order to race; that they don't have to join if they are crew; and that they don't have to enter a race officially, to participate. I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with some credible arguments next time. "Jean Pudl" wrote Bart Senior wrote: Both groups are virtually identical yet they don't accept each others standards! Absurd! Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing. Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years old. I can see why you think they're virtually identical. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Bart Senior wrote:
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making an ass of yourself in your first post. There's little hope I can match your 100% record! It is easy to make hasty remarks that cannot be retracted. Did I say something incorrect? Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate. No connection at all, other than having been a member for several periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints with either. My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs. Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps you should have qualified your comments. ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too bad they did not stay with their expertise. Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their affiliation. So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is funny! That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community. If you knew anything about sail training you would know that the "people" who take such courses span all age groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old. Empty-nester are the most common students. OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp. I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50. I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous. Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school students are identical to the clients of sailing schools following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point of your bizarre statement? That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap in this area they are "identical." You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts. I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to that implication now! Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have become fine sailors through their love of the sport. and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to be a dolt? OK, if you insist. I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you has dropped yet another notch. Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican. US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone that the ASA standard is lower. Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing, its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small boat training, especially for kids. If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your home state: https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post; the truth is: USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and the ASA site never claims it. USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies use their materials is irrelevant. USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the work. I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil agenda. snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative merits to the two training programs I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with some credible arguments next time. I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! JP "Jean Pudl" wrote Bart Senior wrote: Both groups are virtually identical yet they don't accept each others standards! Absurd! Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing. Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years old. I can see why you think they're virtually identical. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior. In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate them to you. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat schools are, in fact, commercial ventures. Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing? In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the same degree as ASA? CONGRESS I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools. Thanks for making me aware of this. While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to write my representatives to discuss this matter with them. In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts, and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:06:05 -0500, Jean Pudl wrote: Bart Senior wrote: Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making an ass of yourself in your first post. There's little hope I can match your 100% record! It is easy to make hasty remarks that cannot be retracted. Did I say something incorrect? Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate. No connection at all, other than having been a member for several periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints with either. My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs. Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps you should have qualified your comments. ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too bad they did not stay with their expertise. Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their affiliation. So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is funny! That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community. If you knew anything about sail training you would know that the "people" who take such courses span all age groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old. Empty-nester are the most common students. OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp. I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50. I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous. Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school students are identical to the clients of sailing schools following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point of your bizarre statement? That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap in this area they are "identical." You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts. I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to that implication now! Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have become fine sailors through their love of the sport. and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to be a dolt? OK, if you insist. I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you has dropped yet another notch. Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican. US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone that the ASA standard is lower. Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing, its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small boat training, especially for kids. If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your home state: https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post; the truth is: USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and the ASA site never claims it. USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies use their materials is irrelevant. USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the work. I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil agenda. snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative merits to the two training programs I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with some credible arguments next time. I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! JP "Jean Pudl" wrote Bart Senior wrote: Both groups are virtually identical yet they don't accept each others standards! Absurd! Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not for sailing. Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years old. I can see why you think they're virtually identical. Bravo! Well done. Quite a smackdown! Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
You don't need to use any special type of lure, I will
rise to any bait on the subject of US Sailing. I hold US Sailing's Training Program in contempt. I will continue to be vocal about it. Please feel free to bait me on the subject any time. Amen! "Bob Crantz" wrote I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... "Bob Crantz" wrote I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! I didn't write the above. Amen! But I did say "Great smackdown" Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior. In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate them to you. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat schools are, in fact, commercial ventures. Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing? In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the same degree as ASA? CONGRESS I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools. Thanks for making me aware of this. While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to write my representatives to discuss this matter with them. In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts, and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated. Have you ever worked in a large corporation? Glory! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force.
AMEN "Bob Crantz" wrote Have you ever worked in a large corporation? Glory! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Bob Crantz" wrote in message ... "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior. In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate them to you. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat schools are, in fact, commercial ventures. Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing? In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the same degree as ASA? CONGRESS I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools. Thanks for making me aware of this. While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to write my representatives to discuss this matter with them. In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts, and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated. Have you ever worked in a large corporation? Have you ever heard of 'snipping'? SV |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate. Jean Pudl wrote: No connection at all, other than having been a member for several periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. How so? I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA. In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals, not the whole organization. So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is funny! That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community. And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented' boating community that ASA does not? ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds. .... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous. I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small difference between certifications offered by them... which is true. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a "service." ... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to their favorite butt-kisser boy racers. The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system. Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. ...trains the race committees, etc. Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs. USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity? No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing. The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO. I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet they are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs! I've also heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees to subsidize small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are getting screwed. BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA. If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's been downhill since then. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:49:52 -0700, "Bob Crantz" wrote: "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... "Bob Crantz" wrote I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! I didn't write the above. Amen! But I did say "Great smackdown" Amen! If you want a REAL laugh at Bart's expense got to the website of the FOR PROFIT sailing school where he teaches and look at who their instructors are accredited by (slogan and all) at the top of the home page. http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/ I have no reason to laugh at Bart. He likes sailing and goes and teaches it. What's wrong with doing something for profit? Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force. AMEN "Bob Crantz" wrote Have you ever worked in a large corporation? Glory! There's a big difference between the military culture and "corporate" culture. There is a large degree of accountability in the military and if it doesn't work out, you're out. The jobs rotate every two years. In the corporate world, the employees(management) set the rules. The rules are designed to protect their own positions. This type of structure attracts weak people with personality disorders. The jobs can last for years and fifedoms can be set up. The same goes with any large organization other than the military. In other words, wierd dysfunctional people flourish in these type of organizations. Anyone who applies logic, rationality and expects integrity will soon be disappointed or even flushed out. Those who fail to realize this will eventually suffer psychological damage to some degree. In dealing with these organizations expect the worst and act upon their weak spots or centers of gravity. Deal with people on their weaknesses, not their strengths. It's not a mutual win-win, it's either you or them. If you want sanity and integrity, find some small company or start your own business. Amen! |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Bart,
US SAILING was awarded the title of NGB of sailing by congress through the Armature Sports Act. It is not a self-awarded title. S. "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... : US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves : "The Governing Body of Sailing". : : I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach. : Tit for tat. : : Self-awarded titles are meaningless. : : : "ARG" wrote in : : The governing body of sailing within the : USA, the American Sailing Association, : has designed a number of courses aimed : at differing levels of sailing ability. : . : : Read Full Article : At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 : : |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Bart,
What's your gripe with US SAILING? Sounds like a personal issue. I have heard of more instructors moving from ASA to US SAILING than visa versa. S. "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... : You don't need to use any special type of lure, I will : rise to any bait on the subject of US Sailing. : : I hold US Sailing's Training Program in contempt. I : will continue to be vocal about it. : : Please feel free to bait me on the subject any time. : : Amen! : : "Bob Crantz" wrote : : I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant : Bart-fish than this! : : |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-) CM "DSK" wrote in message ... Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate. Jean Pudl wrote: No connection at all, other than having been a member for several periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. How so? I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA. In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals, not the whole organization. So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is funny! That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community. And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented' boating community that ASA does not? ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds. .... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous. I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small difference between certifications offered by them... which is true. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a "service." ... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to their favorite butt-kisser boy racers. The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system. Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. ...trains the race committees, etc. Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs. USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity? No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing. The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO. I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet they are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs! I've also heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees to subsidize small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are getting screwed. BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA. If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's been downhill since then. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
No apology needed - a good time was had by all.
I wouldn't want to get into the middle of USSa/ASA discussion; then I would truly make an ass of myself. I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee is. The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that it was created by and for one group of schools because they didn't want to pay ASA for an "official" piece of paper. Does this make any difference to the student? Does it make any difference to the charter companies? Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the instructors who have to go through the process of being certified by one or the other, or both. Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a basic keelboat course, how much of that goes back to ASA or USSa? As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must be non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each sport, and is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus certain other functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the organization the fits this role. All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the course with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits which have the same mishigas, but its called "business." Bart Senior wrote: Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior. In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate them to you. I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt. To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities in racing. These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing. One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing instructors. The people that run the program represent the commercial sailing schools. For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started the program and along with the owners of several other sailing schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing schools without a standards based selection process. So now you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but there own. While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their motivations are biased. This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside. Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with this unwieldy buracracy. I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures. I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved the refund I demanded. I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to for more than a brief review? Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off, and was never given the formal written response that was promised to me by the Training Chair. US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any bureacracy the staff is playing CYA. I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their sail training program. I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog with US Sailing and press my issues. US Sailing versus ASA I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point given the material, course content, course names, and the identical RYA source of each program. I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community progarm that uses small boats. In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat schools are, in fact, commercial ventures. Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing? In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the same degree as ASA? CONGRESS I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools. Thanks for making me aware of this. While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to write my representatives to discuss this matter with them. In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts, and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:45:07 -0700, "Bob Crantz" wrote: "Mys Terry" wrote in message . .. On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:49:52 -0700, "Bob Crantz" wrote: "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... "Bob Crantz" wrote I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant Bart-fish than this! I didn't write the above. Amen! But I did say "Great smackdown" Amen! If you want a REAL laugh at Bart's expense got to the website of the FOR PROFIT sailing school where he teaches and look at who their instructors are accredited by (slogan and all) at the top of the home page. http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/ I have no reason to laugh at Bart. He likes sailing and goes and teaches it. What's wrong with doing something for profit? Amen! There is nothing wrong with doing something for profit. Bart the hypocrite was the one who said there was something wrong with US Sailing being for profit. I'm just pointing out his hypocrisy and dishonesty. Hypocrisy is a no-no. Especially here. Bart should know better. Good work Krusty! Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message news:v8ATf.3660$nQ6.2357@clgrps13... Nice Smack Down Doug!!! :-) Brutal, but true! Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda. DSK wrote: .... I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. How so? I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA. So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and interpret as they saw fit? In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals, not the whole organization. No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you were late in paying dues. That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire boating community. And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented' boating community that ASA does not? USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us that in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why shouldn't they be? ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds. Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the answer, But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this area if there weren't people that wanted an alternative. .... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous. I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small difference between certifications offered by them... which is true. The claim was that the two groups were "identical." What the intent was is really only known be Bart. I was clarifying for the benefit of reader who might believe the literal claim. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a "service." Big deal, little deal, its the truth. ... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to their favorite butt-kisser boy racers. And that's not you, I'm guessing. The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system. Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse? You can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming with would be better off with nothing? ...trains the race committees, etc. Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs. yada, yada, yada. Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership they want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you should do something about it rather than whine here. USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity? No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing. Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another organization known for its fair dealings! But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part. The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO. And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you. I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet they are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs! I've also heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees to subsidize small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are getting screwed. BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA. Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing. (Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.) If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's been downhill since then. Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations
are bad, then what is the alternative? I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one. Amen! "Dave" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:46:06 -0500, Jean Pudl said: Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm making value judgments or have some evil agenda. If your only intention was to point out the errors, you've done that, so you can go home. The longer you rant on, the more it appears that you do indeed have an agenda other than simple truth. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Bob Crantz wrote:
Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations are bad, then what is the alternative? I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one. Of course. Piece of cake for any logicl deconstrunctionist above the novice level ;) Options: 1- start a new & different organization 1a- arrogantly demand that every person owning a sailboat must join... or else.... 2- sail in a state of disorganization. Glad I could help on this one. FB- Doug |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Jean Pudl wrote:
Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm making value judgments or have some evil agenda. Well, you *have* made some value judgements. As for evil agenda, if you don't have one, would you like one? There are several available in the lobby. So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and interpret as they saw fit? No, I'm saying that USSA has done a poor job. An international body of sailing rules existed for a hundred years or so before USSA came along, no doubt if USSA withered & died then somehow we'd muddle along at least as well without them until something better came along. In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals, not the whole organization. No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you were late in paying dues. Yep, that was the year I dropped out. Guess what, my dues are about 8 years late now. And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented' boating community that ASA does not? USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us that in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why shouldn't they be? If they are essentially the same, and ASA was there first, then why did USSA get into it unless they had something better to offer? And how do you know that they haven't simply copied material and passed it off as their own? ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds. Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the answer, I do. It was expressly stated by US Sailing. Same reason that USYRU, one of their predecessor organizations, grabbed control of windsurfing... But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this area if there weren't people that wanted an alternative. Really? What if they simply use already existing influence to force people who don't want to change? Sort of like Microsoft? Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a "service." Big deal, little deal, its the truth. Glad we agree on something. ... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to their favorite butt-kisser boy racers. And that's not you, I'm guessing. Should it be? At one time I was a member of a fairly serious team aimed for the Olympics. That was long enough ago that the selection process was vastly different... and the money was provided almost 100% by the contenders. Since then I have always remained very interested in Olympic sailing and remained friends with a lot of sailors in those venues. The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system. Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse? Ah, no. It should have been obvious that I would prefer a selection system based on performance in regattas. Right now we have a "secret points" system whereby the selection committee can pick anybody (maybe I can bribe them into picking me?). Needless to say, they have a vested interest in picking sailors who will do well, but many times they also seem to give the cold shoulder... in selection points & in money... to sailors who seem to win more regattas than their picks. The selection process should first of all be simple & aboveboard. Secondly it should be decided ON THE WATER. ... You can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming with would be better off with nothing? Actually, I'm not claiming they are any worse than marginally competent, with a vested interest in tilting the game certain ways & in gaining control of as much cash flow as they can. The sport of sailing is declining, and they whine about it but don't seem to actually do much about it. Nor are they willing to change any element of their grip on other people's money. yada, yada, yada. Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership they want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you should do something about it rather than whine here. I have done something about it. I don't race as much, nor in as many different places. I also have done a fair amount of Race Officer training and helped shape programs at several different clubs, without any assistance from USSA. I suspect a fair percentage of the decline in sailing is people like me who are not satisfied with the way the sport has changed since the glory days & the boom years. USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity? No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing. Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another organization known for its fair dealings! But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part. ASA has the limited purpose of offering certification to cruising-oriented educational programs, both as a means of providing additional & standardized material to the instructors and an assurance of quality to the student. That's all they do, that's all they want to do. If the ASA started trying to grab control of sailboat racing, I might be interested enough to attend some of their events. They might do a better job. The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO. And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you. Really? A lot of clubs & classes don't, which is another thing that USSA constantly whines about. USSA can't think of anything to do about it, other than to try & extort them into joining by making events cost more for them than for members. BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA. Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing. (Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.) No doubt many are. OTOH where do you think the shorter time frame for start sequences came from? If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's been downhill since then. Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem. Yeah, that must be it. DSK |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"DSK" wrote in message ... Bob Crantz wrote: Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations are bad, then what is the alternative? I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one. Of course. Piece of cake for any logicl deconstrunctionist above the novice level ;) Options: 1- start a new & different organization 1a- arrogantly demand that every person owning a sailboat must join... or else.... 2- sail in a state of disorganization. Glad I could help on this one. FB- Doug Good, but I was hoping for something along the lines of "false dilemma". Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:47:39 GMT, "Capt.Mooron" wrote: Nice Smack Down Doug!!! :-) CM Smack down? It was a lengthy WHINE. Poor Doug lost some races, and of course HE couldn't be responsible! It must be those mean old US Sailing people. What a simpering wimp! He smacked himself down with that one, Mooron. Just out of Curiosity?? Since when... pray tell.... did you become delusional enough to believe your opinion matters?? Seriously?!!! CM |
Learning to sail the USA way.
I learned to sail the USA way - in the Navy!
I'm a Korean War Veteran and damn proud of it! Vote for Bush! Lloyd Bonafide "ARG" wrote in message ... Learning to sail the USA way. The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. It is worth pointing out that these courses are not only available within the USA. Because it's fine reputation, recognised worldwide, many sailing companies across the globe offer these courses with the approval of the Association. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Lloyd Bonafide wrote:
I learned to sail the USA way - in the Navy! I'm a Korean War Veteran and damn proud of it! Vote for Bush! Lloyd Bonafide "ARG" wrote in message ... Learning to sail the USA way. The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. It is worth pointing out that these courses are not only available within the USA. Because it's fine reputation, recognised worldwide, many sailing companies across the globe offer these courses with the approval of the Association. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 Which one? Jeb? W is a lame duck and can't run again. |
Learning to sail the USA way.
How dare you insult the President by calling him a duck, let alone a lame
one! I'm a Korean War Veteran and I'm voting for Bush! Lloyd "katy" wrote in message ... Lloyd Bonafide wrote: I learned to sail the USA way - in the Navy! I'm a Korean War Veteran and damn proud of it! Vote for Bush! Lloyd Bonafide "ARG" wrote in message ... Learning to sail the USA way. The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. It is worth pointing out that these courses are not only available within the USA. Because it's fine reputation, recognised worldwide, many sailing companies across the globe offer these courses with the approval of the Association. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 Which one? Jeb? W is a lame duck and can't run again. |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Lloyd Bonafide wrote:
How dare you insult the President by calling him a duck, let alone a lame one! I'm a Korean War Veteran and I'm voting for Bush! Lloyd "katy" wrote in message ... Lloyd Bonafide wrote: I learned to sail the USA way - in the Navy! I'm a Korean War Veteran and damn proud of it! Vote for Bush! Lloyd Bonafide "ARG" wrote in message ... Learning to sail the USA way. The governing body of sailing within the USA, the American Sailing Association, has designed a number of courses aimed at differing levels of sailing ability. It is worth pointing out that these courses are not only available within the USA. Because it's fine reputation, recognised worldwide, many sailing companies across the globe offer these courses with the approval of the Association. Read Full Article At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3 Which one? Jeb? W is a lame duck and can't run again. Only in your own mind, Lloyd....what little of it there is left... |
bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"NotPony" wrote
Bart, What's your gripe with US SAILING? Sounds like a personal issue. You have made the correct assumption Steve. There are lots of reasons I don't like US Sailing. My blood boils when I think about it. They should change their name to bogUS Sailing. The main issue is a grievance I made to them a number of years ago. US Sailing would not address my complaint, give me a hearing on the matter, schedule a meeting on the subject, or give me the refund I demanded. They never put anything in writing. If you check bogUS Sailing's By-Laws, there is NO process for instructors to file grievances. It is the singular exception in the grievance process. Foolish me! I never thought their management would want to stifle the whole thing. Being a military man, I did not adapt well to civilian life at first. I had come to expect much better, a standard of excellence. I should have taken more aggressive action immediately, but I honestly expected better of them. Perhaps at first, bogUS Sailing simply didn't know how to handle my complaint. Later it was probably easier to ignore me and hope I'd go away. Certainly their were forces within US Sailing that wanted to bury the incident and protect some of the people involved. Here is a brief summary of what happened and how it started. I was taking a Coastal Passage Making ( CP) Instructor Certification Course. This would simply allow me to sign the log books of the students I was teaching in this subject. During this course, I was harassed, put down, pushed off balance, non-stop for a week simply because I stood up for my rights on the first day. They were unable to bully me and I think that ****ed the lead Instructor Trainer (IT) more than anything. It was a clear cut case of bias, and blind stupidity. One "student" happened to be the Naval Academy's Sailing Program Director. He was taking the same course I was taking. From my perspective though, he was another CP Instructor Candidate. Here is what was going on behind the scenes. US Sailing wanted to gain credibility. If the Naval Academy joined their training program it would be a big boost for them. So they greased it for this fellow--he was pre-selected to become an IT, and the two ITs running the course, kissed his ass, made it easy for him, didn't evaluate him, and offered him cigars. Meanwhile I was badgered and humiliated, constantly put off balance, after I simply demanded fair and equal rights. He didn't want or ask for special treatment, yet he received special treatment. I wanted to be treated fairly and was blasted like a target in a shooting gallery and not treated fairly. It started with a simple lottery for selecting berths on the yacht, and I was punished for drawing the best remaining berth. The IT announced he was taking the best cabin and told us to decide amongst ourselves how to divide up the other berths. We gave the one woman aboard the V-berth, and the rest of the group decided to use a lottery format. I was lucky and drew the aft port cabin. The Navy guy got the comfortable dinette berth and the last guy drew the uncomfortable berth. After making a big deal about letting us chose our own methods of assigning bunks, the lead IT now told me I should cede my bunk to the Navy guy--even though he had announced loudly that he was perfectly happy with the dinette berth he drew. I declined the suggestion. We drew lots--the matter was closed as far as I was concerned. Next I was taken aside privately in the clubhouse, this time by both IT's. They sat me down in a tiny room isolated from the others. This time the second instructor started pressuring me to cede my bunk to the Navy guy. I pointed out we were both students. He agreed. I stated I had equal right to the cabin, drew it in a fair lottery. He stated I could make that point. He still said I should give up my cabin but did not give me any valid reason to do so. I refused to give it up. I fault myself for not going on the offense at this point. Frankly I was confused about why they made an issue of it. We followed the lead IT's suggestion to chose our own method. It worked for us, so why did they care? It made no sense to me, put me off balance, and was the beginning of my confusion over the whole event. Can you believe this sort of nonsense would happen? I laugh when I think about it. You just can't make this stuff up! The Lead IT was English. You know how the English love their royalty. I think he viewed the Navy guy, who was an O-6 (Navy rank of Captain in the Reserves) as royalty. That was exactly they way he was treated--like royalty. Starting from that point the lead IT had it in for me. He made the course into a daily hell for me. Any task I was assigned included harassment, distraction, disruption, and rude patronizing comments. How could I focus on the tasks at hand when I was constantly fighting down the urge to push the guy overboard? I'm an easy going guy. To set me off it takes a lot, and I was constantly being push to the edge of my tolerance. It seemed clear to me from the start the lead IT meant to flunk me one way or another. His strategy worked. He did put me off and my performance suffered. Right off the bat, I blew two backed in docking approaches when he made sudden distracting motions at the most critical instant of the maneuver. The slips were a little tight--no sweat going in forward, but a narrow alleyway, and a wide transom meant it had to be perfect to make it in. When I fought back, he piled on me harder. I spent much of my time thinking about where the next shot would come, rather than the task at hand. I could go on and on with you tons of examples. I was dinged for not motoring down the exact center of max ebb of the Golden Gate while the other boat sailed within a biscuit toss of the rocks on the south side. Another time I brought the boat into the dock as perfectly as it could possibly be done. It was a beautiful thing. So what happened? I was dinged for shutting down the engine before my three hands on the dock, holding me in position had cleated us off. Talk about overkill. Three dock lines and the boat was stationary! There was no forward motion, no current, and no wind. Where was this coming from? A book? I felt sure this guy have never docked under sail as it is not a big deal. I've sailed larger boats into slips in such light conditions. It was do this, do that, how come you haven't done this, while the other guy had no pressure, a crew to help him, and GPS navigation I was kept off balance constantly. The bottom line is I was set up to flunk. And that is what they did to me. The fellow who was head of the Naval Academy's sailing program became an IT shortly after he completed the course. He later changed my status to passing. That was nice of him, however, as I thought about it, it ****ed me off further! I guess US Sailing thought I'd be satisfied. No. The root problem remained and was never addressed. I have seen all sorts of things like this happen in other IT clinics. I have little respect for the US Sailing IT's because they have no quality control function to check unprofessional, or incorrect behavior of the IT's. Without a feedback process that eliminates and culls, rude, poor performing, or unfair IT's, the training program will remain mediocre at best. US Sailing's Training Program is run by a few sailing schools, who put their own people in positions of power and together they control the training program for their own financial benefit and to satisfy their own egos and agendas. Some IT's are protected by virtue of the relationships they hold with the sailing schools. People so entrenched cannot be dislodged. The cure is to turn them over and create a standards based process with performance feedback and the real possibility that an IT will be removed and replaced with someone better and more qualified. What is left for me to do regarding bogUS Sailing? I'm thinking about writing some editorials. US Sailing does not deserve our support. They do not deserve the quasi-governmental position they have, and they do not deserve being granted an unfair competitive advantage over the American Sailing Association. I have been looking for an independent film topic and it suddenly occurred to me, my story would make a great topic for a film. The film "Open Water" cost only $120,000 to make and grossed $52 million. Panasonic makes a nice HD video camera for about $10k. I think my story would be a winner. Most people don't understand sailing, but they do understand, assholes with power, bias, harassment, and conflict. There is a lot more to my story. It would make a great screenplay-- easy to shoot, small cast, one or two boats and few props. The stupid close-minded Englishman would make a great character study that you would love to hate. What would be a good title for the movie? My idea for a title is "Contempt" or maybe "Five Sailors, One Asshole, and a Cover-Up". |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
I'm in favor of US Sailing, provided the members have
a voice. They don't. "Bob Crantz" wrote Jean presents a very good point. If one or both of the sailing organizations are bad, then what is the alternative? I'm anxiously waiting to see if anyone can dissect that one. Amen! |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"Jean Pudl" wrote I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee is. The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that it was created by and for one group of schools because they didn't want to pay ASA for an "official" piece of paper. Correct. It started with three school in the SF Bay area. The Training Chairman owns one of these schools. He has several of the IT's on his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there expenses and owns their votes. One of them should be fired from his position as an IT on ethics charges. I have some hope the Training Chair will implement some changes. However, nearly everything I've discussed with him has been brushed off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at my expense just to be ignored after I'm gone. I dropped my membership and asked for my certification money back. Which reminds me, I need to write them about that again. I'll have to send it certified mail this time. They gave me a "screw you" on the telephone when last I called them. Does this make any difference to the student? Does it make any difference to the charter companies? Nope. Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the instructors who have to go through the process of being certified by one or the other, or both. Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a basic keelboat course, how much of that goes back to ASA or USSa? Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They have to join to be competitive now that the "Certification" paper is what they are selling. Students feel the paper means something and don't understand it is the skills that are important and the paper is meaningless. Student fees include book costs, tests, and the log book. I'll can only guess what the total is. Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are forced to pay for insurance. This is a scam since the schools already have insurance. bogUS Sailing both claims this fee is both insurance and not for insurance, but insists instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I lost my cool over this last year. How can they say it is and that it isn't for insurance? What hogwash! I want a written answer on this one. When I signed up the only requirement for recertification was up to date First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus insurance fee is attached. Again, they say it is not for insurance, but that is what it pays for--so that is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out of them on that one. And they won't put and answer down on paper either! As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must be non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each sport, and is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus certain other functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the organization the fits this role. I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and you get something for your money--race committees. However, I refuse to take a Safety at Sea seminar from someone who knows less about it than I, when I know the reason they won't place people out of such things is because of the profits they make on these courses. I'd prefer to race unofficially and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on my boat, and offer to take only it off if they pay me. Did you know someone recently proposed raising the grievance fee to raise more money at US Sailing? How could they even consider such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there should not be any fee associated with filing a grievance! Screw them. What a bunch of asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about money, not about improving the sport. I agree with Doug that there is an appearance that they support and recognize certain sailor that are "in". Those can do no wrong. The more awards the heap on them, the more valuable they are to the organization. It's like blowing up a balloon. There is little to back it up but what was already there. All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the course with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits which have the same mishigas, but its called "business." I disagree. Such an organization should have a standard of excellence. I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that actually represent members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could then represent them and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be first to sign my list? I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd love to fight to make them change the ridiculous way they operate. They are so inept. |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
"DSK" wrote Jean Pudl wrote: And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented' boating community that ASA does not? ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds. The US Power Squadron at the upper levels is just as much as mess as US Sailing. However at the Squadron level they do a fabulous job of training people at minimum cost. The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a "service." Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. If this is true, it should be documented and hammered home until the lose their "Governing Body" assignment. Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs. Tell us more Doug. I'd love to hear about it. USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity? No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing. I believe you Doug. I'd like to know more about how US Sailing spend their money. I'd like to see them publisize report with content in them instead of fluff. What do they actually do? Why won't they put it down in writing? Where do they spend all the money? |
Learning to sail the USA way.
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:48:22 -0500, katy said: Only in your own mind, Lloyd....what little of it there is left... Katy, in case you hadn't guessed, Lloyd, Crantz and "Steve Dooley" are all puppets dancing to the same puppeteer. The spirit of the game, Dave. I know who Lloyd is. Just one more unintegrated personality seeking a home.... |
US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
Bart Senior wrote:
The US Power Squadron at the upper levels is just as much as mess as US Sailing. However at the Squadron level they do a fabulous job of training people at minimum cost. IMHO a lot of that has to do with personalities. The people who are attracted to the upper levels of these types of groups are either service driven (and their idea of "service" may not be the same as yours or mine) or ego driven. Another factor is that you can't fire volunteers. I think that was part of Jean P's point- that USSA is better than nothing at all, which is what would be in place if we "fired" them. Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites. If this is true, it should be documented and hammered home until the lose their "Governing Body" assignment. That will never happen, or at least not until the New England Sailing Mafia has grown more distant from the Int'l Olympic Committee. And when that happens (unless some other sailors jump into the breach) sailing will probably cease to be an Olympic sport. It simply doesn't command the numbers or the money that is expected in the Olympics nowadays. But the US Olympic sailing selection process should absolutely be open, ie the process & the priorities of the selection committee should be known to the competitors. This "secret probation" malarkey is right out of Animal House. They claim they don't want competitors to 'game the system' but it's obviously (IMHO) being gamed from the inside. It's not like there would be an unmanageable stampede of people trying to get into the Olympics. And imagine what would happen if participation at high level sailing competition increased! Don't get me started. It's been bungled from long ago, for one thing the Hobie Cat and the Laser should have been selected as Olympic classes long ago. Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs. Tell us more Doug. I'd love to hear about it. It's a question of goal oriented management. I'm sure that the USSA Race Officer training intends to produce PROs who keep in mind fairness of competition & enjoyability for the competitors; however when we attend a race and the Race Committee signals delay after delay while the PRO screams into his radio trying to get the mark boat to adjust the starting line so it is ultra-perfect, I know exactly where he learned this procedure. Again, it's a question of personalities... I think that some people probably would refuse to serve on Race Committees if they didn't get the chance to tyrannize the racers with their majestic authority. But USSA certification magnifies this tendency when it should minimize it, IMHO. .... I'd like to know more about how US Sailing spend their money. A lot of people would. The dinghy classes are sure that their dues & fees are subsiding the keelboats & offshore racing, the big boat guys are complaining that they are ****ing away money on the little boats. I'd like to see them publisize report with content in them instead of fluff. What do they actually do? Why won't they put it down in writing? Where do they spend all the money? I bet they do have an annual treasurer's report, but I don't know where it's published. As I said before, my solution was to pretty much shrug off involvement... except when pulled into it by the clubs where we sail. Fresh Breezes- Doug |
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