US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

I purposely don't know much about the keelboat
training because I think it's kind of goofy. But,
I'm 100% behind US SAILING's small boat training.
As the director of a sailing center, I require all
my instructors to have SBSI level I and all my
coaches to have level II. I know every aspect of
the training they've received.
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
:
: "Jean Pudl" wrote
:
: I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial"
sail training committee is.
: The impression I've had (based on little real
evidence) was that it was
: created by and for one group of schools
because they didn't want to pay
: ASA for an "official" piece of paper.
:
: Correct. It started with three school in the SF
Bay area. The Training
: Chairman owns one of these schools. He has
several of the IT's on
: his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there
expenses and owns
: their votes. One of them should be fired from
his position as an IT
: on ethics charges.
:
: I have some hope the Training Chair will
implement some changes.
: However, nearly everything I've discussed with
him has been brushed
: off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at
my expense just to be
: ignored after I'm gone.
:
: I dropped my membership and asked for my
certification money back.
: Which reminds me, I need to write them about
that again. I'll have to
: send it certified mail this time. They gave me a
"screw you" on the
: telephone when last I called them.
:
: Does this make any difference to the student?
Does it make any difference
: to the charter companies?
:
: Nope.
:
: Actually, it seems it only makes a difference
to the instructors who have
: to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both.
: Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much
: of that goes back to ASA or USSa?
:
: Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They
have to join to be competitive
: now that the "Certification" paper is what they
are selling. Students feel
: the paper means something and don't understand
it is the skills that are
: important and the paper is meaningless.
:
: Student fees include book costs, tests, and the
log book. I'll can only
: guess what the total is.
:
: Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are
forced to pay for insurance.
: This is a scam since the schools already have
insurance. bogUS Sailing
: both claims this fee is both insurance and not
for insurance, but insists
: instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I
lost my cool over this
: last year. How can they say it is and that it
isn't for insurance? What
: hogwash! I want a written answer on this one.
:
: When I signed up the only requirement for
recertification was up to date
: First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus
insurance fee is attached.
: Again, they say it is not for insurance, but
that is what it pays for--so
: that
: is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out
of them on that one. And
: they won't put and answer down on paper either!
:
:
: As to the "governing body" issue, this is a
byproduct of the Olympic
: Committee process, where one and only one
group (and I assume it must be
: non-profit) must be designated as the
governing body for each sport, and
: is responsible for the Olympic and
Pan-American teams, plus certain other
: functions. For better or worse, USSailing is
the organization the fits
: this role.
:
: I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and
you get something for your
: money--race committees. However, I refuse to
take a Safety at Sea
: seminar from someone who knows less about it
than I, when I know
: the reason they won't place people out of such
things is because of
: the profits they make on these courses. I'd
prefer to race unofficially
: and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on
my boat, and offer to
: take only it off if they pay me.
:
: Did you know someone recently proposed raising
the grievance fee
: to raise more money at US Sailing? How could
they even consider
: such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there
should not be any fee
: associated with filing a grievance! Screw them.
What a bunch of
: asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about
money, not about improving
: the sport.
:
: I agree with Doug that there is an appearance
that they support
: and recognize certain sailor that are "in".
Those can do no wrong.
: The more awards the heap on them, the more
valuable they are to
: the organization. It's like blowing up a
balloon. There is little to
: back it up but what was already there.
:
: All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back
stabbing, conflicts of
: interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc.
seem to be par for the course
: with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed
to for-profits which have
: the same mishigas, but its called "business."
:
: I disagree. Such an organization should have a
standard of excellence.
:
: I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that
actually represent
: members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could
then represent them
: and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be
first to sign my list?
: I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd
love to fight to make them
: change the ridiculous way they operate. They
are so inept.
:
:

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Everything you say may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that if
USSailing was torn down and reconstructed today, the most likely
outcome (though certainly not the only possibility) is something very
similar to what we have now.

But a few facts: since USSailing has been around since 1897, what
international rules are you claiming that goes back to the 18th
century? And the last Olympic selection that I followed was 1992 -
that seemed to be on the water (to the chagrin of a friend who had the
flu at a critical regatta); how has that changed?

And I hardly think you can blame any organization for the "decline" of
sailing. You can probably show a more causal relationship with the
the Internet, or cell phones, or sunspots.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Bart,

Unfortunately your experiences are not unique.

I've seen a homeowner's association ruin a person who was building a home
that was not even in their jurisdiction. The association filed numerous
lawsuits against the person, officers of the association tresspassed and
vandalized the construction site, they filed false complaints and in the
end, when it got to court, they weren't even a legally recognized home
owners association.

I've seen a narcissistic boss manipulate employees to work as much overtime
as they would bear (without any form of compensation), routinely expose
workers to ground up silicates (sending one to the hospital) fumes and other
OSHA regulated hazards, not pay people at all, change time cards, lie and
coverup to superiors, give raises in writing but never pay them, run good
people out (40% turnover) and finally push a person into a mental hospital.

These are just two small examples of people losing tens of thousands of
dollars, their pay, their health, their families and their mental health
based upon their homes and jobs.
You're complaing about snooty sailing instructors in a voluntary
association.

As it always will be, positions of power attract the people least desirable
for those positions.

The strongest person is he who stands most alone.

Amen!

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Bart, who is this Navy guy who is now a CP
instructor? Cmdr. Vandenberg is the Director of
the NA's sailing program, and he isn't a CP
instructor. In fact, I don't see anyone in the
list that is associated with the NA.
I don't know about the keelboat side, but in the
small boat training side, there are many
opportunities for the instructors and host site to
be critiqued.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: "NotPony" wrote
:
: Bart,
: What's your gripe with US SAILING? Sounds
like a
: personal issue.
:
: You have made the correct assumption Steve.
:
: There are lots of reasons I don't like US
Sailing. My blood
: boils when I think about it. They should change
their name
: to bogUS Sailing.
:
: The main issue is a grievance I made to them a
number of
: years ago. US Sailing would not address my
complaint, give
: me a hearing on the matter, schedule a meeting
on the subject,
: or give me the refund I demanded.
:
: They never put anything in writing. If you
check bogUS Sailing's
: By-Laws, there is NO process for instructors to
file grievances.
: It is the singular exception in the grievance
process.
:
: Foolish me! I never thought their management
would want to
: stifle the whole thing. Being a military man, I
did not adapt
: well to civilian life at first. I had come to
expect much better,
: a standard of excellence. I should have taken
more aggressive
: action immediately, but I honestly expected
better of them.
:
: Perhaps at first, bogUS Sailing simply didn't
know how to handle
: my complaint. Later it was probably easier to
ignore me and
: hope I'd go away. Certainly their were forces
within US Sailing
: that wanted to bury the incident and protect
some of the people
: involved.
:
: Here is a brief summary of what happened and how
it started.
:
: I was taking a Coastal Passage Making ( CP)
Instructor
: Certification Course. This would simply allow
me to sign the log
: books of the students I was teaching in this
subject.
:
: During this course, I was harassed, put down,
pushed off balance,
: non-stop for a week simply because I stood up
for my rights on
: the first day. They were unable to bully me
and I think that ****ed
: the lead Instructor Trainer (IT) more than
anything.
:
: It was a clear cut case of bias, and blind
stupidity. One "student"
: happened to be the Naval Academy's Sailing
Program Director.
: He was taking the same course I was taking. From
my perspective
: though, he was another CP Instructor Candidate.
:
: Here is what was going on behind the scenes.
:
: US Sailing wanted to gain credibility. If the
Naval Academy joined
: their training program it would be a big boost
for them. So they
: greased it for this fellow--he was pre-selected
to become an IT, and
: the two ITs running the course, kissed his ass,
made it easy for him,
: didn't evaluate him, and offered him cigars.
Meanwhile I was badgered
: and humiliated, constantly put off balance,
after I simply demanded
: fair and equal rights.
:
: He didn't want or ask for special treatment, yet
he received special
: treatment. I wanted to be treated fairly and
was blasted like a
: target in a shooting gallery and not treated
fairly.
:
: It started with a simple lottery for selecting
berths on the yacht,
: and I was punished for drawing the best
remaining berth.
:
: The IT announced he was taking the best cabin
and told us to
: decide amongst ourselves how to divide up the
other berths.
: We gave the one woman aboard the V-berth, and
the rest of the
: group decided to use a lottery format. I was
lucky and drew the
: aft port cabin. The Navy guy got the
comfortable dinette berth
: and the last guy drew the uncomfortable berth.
:
: After making a big deal about letting us chose
our own methods
: of assigning bunks, the lead IT now told me I
should cede my bunk
: to the Navy guy--even though he had announced
loudly that he was
: perfectly happy with the dinette berth he drew.
I declined the
: suggestion. We drew lots--the matter was closed
as far as I was
: concerned.
:
: Next I was taken aside privately in the
clubhouse, this time by both
: IT's. They sat me down in a tiny room isolated
from the others.
: This time the second instructor started
pressuring me to cede my
: bunk to the Navy guy. I pointed out we were
both students. He
: agreed. I stated I had equal right to the
cabin, drew it in a fair
: lottery. He stated I could make that point. He
still said I should
: give up my cabin but did not give me any valid
reason to do so.
:
: I refused to give it up. I fault myself for not
going on the offense
: at this point. Frankly I was confused about why
they made an issue
: of it. We followed the lead IT's suggestion to
chose our own
: method. It worked for us, so why did they care?
It made no sense
: to me, put me off balance, and was the beginning
of my confusion
: over the whole event.
:
: Can you believe this sort of nonsense would
happen? I laugh when
: I think about it. You just can't make this
stuff up!
:
: The Lead IT was English. You know how the
English love their
: royalty. I think he viewed the Navy guy, who
was an O-6
: (Navy rank of Captain in the Reserves) as
royalty. That was
: exactly they way he was treated--like royalty.
:
: Starting from that point the lead IT had it in
for me. He made the
: course into a daily hell for me. Any task I was
assigned included
: harassment, distraction, disruption, and rude
patronizing comments.
: How could I focus on the tasks at hand when I
was constantly
: fighting down the urge to push the guy
overboard? I'm an easy
: going guy. To set me off it takes a lot, and I
was constantly being
: push to the edge of my tolerance.
:
: It seemed clear to me from the start the lead IT
meant to flunk me
: one way or another. His strategy worked. He
did put me off and
: my performance suffered. Right off the bat, I
blew two backed in
: docking approaches when he made sudden
distracting motions at
: the most critical instant of the maneuver. The
slips were a little
: tight--no sweat going in forward, but a narrow
alleyway, and a
: wide transom meant it had to be perfect to make
it in.
:
: When I fought back, he piled on me harder. I
spent much of my
: time thinking about where the next shot would
come, rather than
: the task at hand.
:
: I could go on and on with you tons of examples.
I was dinged
: for not motoring down the exact center of max
ebb of the Golden
: Gate while the other boat sailed within a
biscuit toss of the rocks on
: the south side. Another time I brought the boat
into the dock as
: perfectly as it could possibly be done. It was
a beautiful thing. So
: what happened? I was dinged for shutting down
the engine before
: my three hands on the dock, holding me in
position had cleated us
: off. Talk about overkill. Three dock lines and
the boat was stationary!
: There was no forward motion, no current, and no
wind. Where was
: this coming from? A book? I felt sure this guy
have never docked
: under sail as it is not a big deal. I've sailed
larger boats into slips in
: such light conditions.
:
: It was do this, do that, how come you haven't
done this, while the
: other guy had no pressure, a crew to help him,
and GPS navigation
: I was kept off balance constantly. The bottom
line is I was set up
: to flunk. And that is what they did to me.
:
: The fellow who was head of the Naval Academy's
sailing program
: became an IT shortly after he completed the
course. He later
: changed my status to passing. That was nice of
him, however, as
: I thought about it, it ****ed me off further! I
guess US Sailing
: thought I'd be satisfied. No. The root problem
remained and was
: never addressed.
:
: I have seen all sorts of things like this happen
in other IT clinics.
: I have little respect for the US Sailing IT's
because they have no
: quality control function to check
unprofessional, or incorrect
: behavior of the IT's. Without a feedback
process that eliminates
: and culls, rude, poor performing, or unfair
IT's, the training program
: will remain mediocre at best.
:
: US Sailing's Training Program is run by a few
sailing schools, who
: put their own people in positions of power and
together they control
: the training program for their own financial
benefit and to satisfy their
: own egos and agendas. Some IT's are protected
by virtue of the
: relationships they hold with the sailing
schools. People so entrenched
: cannot be dislodged. The cure is to turn them
over and create a
: standards based process with performance
feedback and the real
: possibility that an IT will be removed and
replaced with someone
: better and more qualified.
:
: What is left for me to do regarding bogUS
Sailing? I'm thinking
: about writing some editorials. US Sailing does
not deserve our
: support. They do not deserve the
quasi-governmental position
: they have, and they do not deserve being granted
an unfair
: competitive advantage over the American Sailing
Association.
:
: I have been looking for an independent film
topic and it suddenly
: occurred to me, my story would make a great
topic for a film.
:
: The film "Open Water" cost only $120,000 to make
and grossed
: $52 million. Panasonic makes a nice HD video
camera for
: about $10k. I think my story would be a winner.
Most people don't
: understand sailing, but they do understand,
assholes with power,
: bias, harassment, and conflict.
:
: There is a lot more to my story. It would make
a great screenplay--
: easy to shoot, small cast, one or two boats and
few props. The
: stupid close-minded Englishman would make a
great character study
: that you would love to hate.
:
: What would be a good title for the movie? My
idea for a title is
: "Contempt" or maybe "Five Sailors, One Asshole,
and a Cover-Up".
:
:
:
:
:
:

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Jean Pudl wrote:
But a few facts: since USSailing has been around since 1897

Excuse me?

That is not a fact.

U.S. Sailing is the successor organization to NAYRU and USYRU.

... what
international rules are you claiming that goes back to the 18th
century?

Heck, starboard tack right of way goes back to the Vikings.

... And the last Olympic selection that I followed was 1992 - that
seemed to be on the water (to the chagrin of a friend who had the flu at
a critical regatta); how has that changed?


Actually that selection was a last-minute change but it
didn't work out the way they thought it would. I am sorry
for your friend, I think I know who it is. Didn't the
selection in this case come down to a single light-air race?

Since then, they have changed the process and made it
secret, then published the rules, then made exceptions to
the rules, etc etc.


And I hardly think you can blame any organization for the "decline" of
sailing. You can probably show a more causal relationship with the the
Internet, or cell phones, or sunspots.

If there had been video games when I was a kid, I would not
have been interested in sailing either.

But as "the official governing body for the sport of
sailing" don't you think USSA should have a better idea what
to do about it, instead of shrugging & saying 'oh well'?

DSK

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 01:10:59 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:47:39 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:

Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-)

CM


Smack down? It was a lengthy WHINE. Poor Doug lost some races, and of
course HE
couldn't be responsible! It must be those mean old US Sailing people.
What
a
simpering wimp!

He smacked himself down with that one, Mooron.


Just out of Curiosity?? Since when... pray tell.... did you become
delusional enough to believe your opinion matters??

Seriously?!!!

CM


It appears it mattered to you, Guy!

Aw Sheesh... now you're all hurt again aren't you..... you really should
get a thicker skin Billy! These tantrums you throw don't go far in according
your opinions any merit. Now go take a "time-out" in the corner until you've
thought this through.

This fricken' geriatric infantile behaviour of yours is wearing thin.....

CM

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Is there some type of volunteer sail organization much like the Citizens'
Auxiliary Police that aid the Coast Guard?

Jay Santos

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

NotPony wrote:
I don't know about the keelboat side, but in the
small boat training side, there are many
opportunities for the instructors and host site to
be critiqued.
S.

Some years ago I got involved in the Level 1 and 2 Dinghy
Instructor program, which was pretty neat... being run by
much younger people, for one thing... it was expensive to
get them to come & do a course but the intructional talent,
organization, and dedication to the sport were good.

DSK

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

AMEN

"Bob Crantz" wrote

The strongest person is he who stands most alone.

Amen!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Jay Santos wrote:
Is there some type of volunteer sail organization much like the Citizens'
Auxiliary Police that aid the Coast Guard?

Jay Santos



The Coast Guard Auxiliary...

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Steve, I don't think he is there any more. I didn't say he
was a CP instructor--he probably was. He did serve as
BK/BC IT outside of the Naval Academy for US Sailing
commerical keelboat school. Give me a call or pass your
phone number to Doug and I'll tell you whatever you want
to know.

Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
to take yet another certification course to teach small
boats? I don't. That issue alone turned me away from
volunteering at one location.

Do you think that every single certification required
that someone take an evaluation course? The purpose
of which is to make money? Should there not be a
process where a committee review is sufficient to
grant such status? Take the Naval Academy guy.
It was presumed he was passed and he was not
evaluated to the same standard as I was. In my
opinion, he probably could have shown he taught
such courses, document this fact and be able to
submit a resume to place out of such a requirement.

Certainly if the presumption is everyone should be
evaluate to the same standard, they should all be
treated exactly the same. Everything should be
above board. If it's not, it needs to be fixed.
Those at fault need to be removed from such
authority.

Given the close similarities between ASA and bogUS
Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
certified instructor need to re-qualify for US Sailing?
I don't.

Do you think less qualified people should be
evaluating those with more comprehensive sailing
resumes? I don't.

Do you think a high percentage of the IT's should come
from one sailing school? I don't.

Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
school should be the training chair? I don't.

Do you think commercial sailing instructor's deserve
their own representation at US Sailing? I do.

You say there are lots of opportunities for feedback
on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap in the
grievance process in the By-Laws for instructors?

The bottom line is it seems most sailor wants to think
they are better than most everyone else. I've seen it
in racing crews, I've seen it in US Sailing. You have
so many ego's trying to drive others down in the pecking
order. What happened to developing skills?

I've said it many times in the past. You have to be
humble if you want to learn. US Sailing needs to
develop some humility.


"NotPony" wrote
Bart, who is this Navy guy who is now a CP
instructor? Cmdr. Vandenberg is the Director of
the NA's sailing program, and he isn't a CP
instructor. In fact, I don't see anyone in the
list that is associated with the NA.
I don't know about the keelboat side, but in the
small boat training side, there are many
opportunities for the instructors and host site to
be critiqued.
S.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

I like and admire Rich too. My only beef with him, and
it is a big one, is he refused to document 151 days of
sea time I had with him in 1995 which delayed getting
my USCG license considerably. The reason being he
was afraid of the USCG. I was not the only one hurt by
that policy. Is it favoritism to document sea time only
for employees with USCG licenses? I think so. Equal
credit for equal work. That is fair. If he was worried
about the consequences he should have taken action
himself to clarify the matter with the USCG.

Other than that. I'll give credit where it is due. His school
is probably the best in the world. And his techniques are
the best for instruction--thoroughly refined and perfected.
I'd send my own family members to learn there.

US Sailing is, I'm told, working with the USCG to make
some changes to give exemptions to the licensing requirement
for sailing instructors. Frankly, I feel bogUS Sailing has
screwed up horribly by not having this done ten years ago,
given the problem was well known at that time. Frankly
I don't expect any progress in that area, because I've seen
nothing in print on the subject. Without documentation
there is never accountability.

If they can pay to lobby to be the "Governing Body of
the Sport, why can't they lobby to make important changes
that would benefit sailing instructors? It's because it won't
make them any money. An effort like this take a concerted
effort, constant pressure, public editorials, phone calls from
lots of people to make it happen--not one guy's part-time
effort. If I had the responsibility to make this happen I
could make it happen in one year. If I didn't I'd be working
to get someone fired in the USCG.

Lets watch. I'll bet nothing happens. Then will you agree that
bogUS Sailing is inept? Will you speak out about it to put
pressure on the subject? Ten years from now they will
still be talking about this and saying they are making progress.

Tell me Steve. Do you know who is paid at US Sailing? Do
you know how much they make? Have you seen an accurate
spreadsheet showing how all the money is spent? Why do they
hide this information? Why is it not displayed as a file on there
web site? Why are meeting minutes so terse?

Things I've been told about never show up in meeting minutes.
That is either proof they do not document things, or proof they
are not doing the things they claim to be doing.

I think their insurance is worth investigation. Why is there not
a more competitive process for insurance. They only have one
insurance provider. That smells like kickback to me.

One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should lose it's non-profit
status--because they do not represent their constituents.

I think I'll look up the tax laws on the subject. I'll bet I can
find an issue to support my assertion. Stirring the pot can only
improve bogUS Sailing and maybe it will make them into an
organization worth joining.


"NotPony" wrote
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Here Jay.... see if you can get on the Conquest. She has a rich history
of fighting commies, Iranians, and other spokes on the Axis of Evil.
She has also rescued many and provided relief for victims of natural
disasters. She has plied most ports of the world. I know for a fact the
best boat coxswain in the US Navy helmed her for a few years in her
career.

http://www.ship564.org/boats.html

Now she serves with the Sea Scouts. I hear she keeps a sharp eye out
for terrorist types. If she's not local to you... find a local Sea
Scout troop.

Joe

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message news:XbXTf.8



One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should lose it's non-profit
status--because they do not represent their constituents.

If that is part of their bylaws, you may have them. Usually a slim chance.

However if you can show that profits are directed back toward officers and
directors you do then have them. It may not have to be monetary profit,
maybe just some unusual perks or preferential treatment.

Also check for political bias.



I think I'll look up the tax laws on the subject. I'll bet I can
find an issue to support my assertion.

It may be better to audit their books.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here Jay.... see if you can get on the Conquest. She has a rich history
of fighting commies, Iranians, and other spokes on the Axis of Evil.
She has also rescued many and provided relief for victims of natural
disasters. She has plied most ports of the world. I know for a fact the
best boat coxswain in the US Navy helmed her for a few years in her
career.

http://www.ship564.org/boats.html

Now she serves with the Sea Scouts. I hear she keeps a sharp eye out
for terrorist types. If she's not local to you... find a local Sea
Scout troop.

Joe

Were you an officer in the Sea Scouts Joe?

What rank did you attain?

It appears you were at least Captain of the Sea Scout Vessel.

Amen!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

The Sea Scouts also restore boats beyond that ferry boat you skippered:

http://www.scout544ptf.com/

aaaahaahahahahahahaahahhhhahahahahahaaaaa!!!!!!!

Glory!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Warning! While many in the USCGA are sharp seaman.

Many more are untrained novices in the "keystone cop" category.

"Dave" wrote

Jay Santos" said:
Is there some type of volunteer sail organization much like the Citizens'
Auxiliary Police that aid the Coast Guard?

Not a "sail organization," but there's a Coast Guard Auxiliary. Your local
CG should be able to put you in touch with the local one.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

The Sea Scout are a great organization. Up here have
been led by a very able sailor. They win races all the time.
A sharp bunch.

Amen!

"Bob Crantz" wrote
The Sea Scouts also restore boats beyond that ferry boat you skippered:
http://www.scout544ptf.com/

Glory!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Never in the sea scouts, but you're right..I have been skipper of one
Sea Scout boat.

I was an airman in the C.A.P.

Joe

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Ahh... Bob the PT boat has not been restored.

That Sea Scouts troop have a big project that is going to cost big
bucks!

We have a WWII vintage PT here in Clearlake. Called the "Ohhh Frankie"
seems Sinatra was aboard during the war.

Joe

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: Steve, I don't think he is there any more. I
didn't say he
: was a CP instructor--he probably was. He did
serve as
: BK/BC IT outside of the Naval Academy for US
Sailing
: commerical keelboat school. Give me a call or
pass your
: phone number to Doug and I'll tell you whatever
you want
: to know.

You can find my email address and email me.
That's probably the best way to get me.

:
: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat
instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to
teach small
: boats? I don't. That issue alone turned me
away from
: volunteering at one location.

I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.

:
: Do you think that every single certification
required
: that someone take an evaluation course? The
purpose
: of which is to make money? Should there not be
a
: process where a committee review is sufficient
to
: grant such status? Take the Naval Academy guy.
: It was presumed he was passed and he was not
: evaluated to the same standard as I was. In my
: opinion, he probably could have shown he taught
: such courses, document this fact and be able to
: submit a resume to place out of such a
requirement.

I do. How else are you going to evaluate their
skills? Take their word for it? Most people I
know over estimate their skills.
:
: Certainly if the presumption is everyone should
be
: evaluate to the same standard, they should all
be
: treated exactly the same. Everything should be
: above board. If it's not, it needs to be fixed.
: Those at fault need to be removed from such
: authority.
:
: Given the close similarities between ASA and
bogUS
: Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
: certified instructor need to re-qualify for US
Sailing?
: I don't.

I don't know anything about the requirements for
ASA's keel boat instructors.

:
: Do you think less qualified people should be
: evaluating those with more comprehensive sailing
: resumes? I don't.

It depends. I know there are more qualified
sailors than me who have far less teaching
ability.

:
: Do you think a high percentage of the IT's
should come
: from one sailing school? I don't.

Doesn't matter as long as they meet the standard.
:
: Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
: school should be the training chair? I don't.

Who better to understand the training
requirements? Would a pencil pusher be better
qualified?

:
: Do you think commercial sailing instructor's
deserve
: their own representation at US Sailing? I do.

I might have an opinion if I were in a commercial
venture.

:
: You say there are lots of opportunities for
feedback
: on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap
in the
: grievance process in the By-Laws for
instructors?

Talk to your RTC.

:
: The bottom line is it seems most sailor wants to
think
: they are better than most everyone else. I've
seen it
: in racing crews, I've seen it in US Sailing.
You have
: so many ego's trying to drive others down in the
pecking
: order. What happened to developing skills?

That's why there are instructor evaluations.

:
: I've said it many times in the past. You have
to be
: humble if you want to learn. US Sailing needs
to
: develop some humility.
:
:

S.

: "NotPony" wrote
: Bart, who is this Navy guy who is now a CP
: instructor? Cmdr. Vandenberg is the Director
of
: the NA's sailing program, and he isn't a CP
: instructor. In fact, I don't see anyone in the
: list that is associated with the NA.
: I don't know about the keelboat side, but in
the
: small boat training side, there are many
: opportunities for the instructors and host
site to
: be critiqued.
: S.
:
:

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

US SAILING's financial statements and budgets are
available on their website.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: I like and admire Rich too. My only beef with
him, and
: it is a big one, is he refused to document 151
days of
: sea time I had with him in 1995 which delayed
getting
: my USCG license considerably. The reason being
he
: was afraid of the USCG. I was not the only one
hurt by
: that policy. Is it favoritism to document sea
time only
: for employees with USCG licenses? I think so.
Equal
: credit for equal work. That is fair. If he
was worried
: about the consequences he should have taken
action
: himself to clarify the matter with the USCG.
:
: Other than that. I'll give credit where it is
due. His school
: is probably the best in the world. And his
techniques are
: the best for instruction--thoroughly refined and
perfected.
: I'd send my own family members to learn there.
:
: US Sailing is, I'm told, working with the USCG
to make
: some changes to give exemptions to the licensing
requirement
: for sailing instructors. Frankly, I feel bogUS
Sailing has
: screwed up horribly by not having this done ten
years ago,
: given the problem was well known at that time.
Frankly
: I don't expect any progress in that area,
because I've seen
: nothing in print on the subject. Without
documentation
: there is never accountability.
:
: If they can pay to lobby to be the "Governing
Body of
: the Sport, why can't they lobby to make
important changes
: that would benefit sailing instructors? It's
because it won't
: make them any money. An effort like this take a
concerted
: effort, constant pressure, public editorials,
phone calls from
: lots of people to make it happen--not one guy's
part-time
: effort. If I had the responsibility to make
this happen I
: could make it happen in one year. If I didn't
I'd be working
: to get someone fired in the USCG.
:
: Lets watch. I'll bet nothing happens. Then
will you agree that
: bogUS Sailing is inept? Will you speak out
about it to put
: pressure on the subject? Ten years from now
they will
: still be talking about this and saying they are
making progress.
:
: Tell me Steve. Do you know who is paid at US
Sailing? Do
: you know how much they make? Have you seen an
accurate
: spreadsheet showing how all the money is spent?
Why do they
: hide this information? Why is it not displayed
as a file on there
: web site? Why are meeting minutes so terse?
:
: Things I've been told about never show up in
meeting minutes.
: That is either proof they do not document
things, or proof they
: are not doing the things they claim to be doing.
:
: I think their insurance is worth investigation.
Why is there not
: a more competitive process for insurance. They
only have one
: insurance provider. That smells like kickback
to me.
:
: One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should
lose it's non-profit
: status--because they do not represent their
constituents.
:
: I think I'll look up the tax laws on the
subject. I'll bet I can
: find an issue to support my assertion. Stirring
the pot can only
: improve bogUS Sailing and maybe it will make
them into an
: organization worth joining.
:
:
: "NotPony" wrote
: I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
: Jepsen. He has done well in leading the
training
: committee in rewriting the level II training
and
: they are almost done the rewrite of the level
I
: and Start Sailing Right.
: No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it
does
: well with it's small staff and volunteers.
: S.
:
:

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
...
Bart,

Unfortunately your experiences are not unique.

I've seen a homeowner's association ruin a person who was
building a home
that was not even in their jurisdiction. The association
filed numerous
lawsuits against the person, officers of the association
tresspassed and
vandalized the construction site, they filed false
complaints and in the
end, when it got to court, they weren't even a legally
recognized home
owners association.

I've seen a narcissistic boss manipulate employees to work
as much overtime
as they would bear (without any form of compensation),
routinely expose
workers to ground up silicates (sending one to the
hospital) fumes and other
OSHA regulated hazards, not pay people at all, change time
cards, lie and
coverup to superiors, give raises in writing but never pay
them, run good
people out (40% turnover) and finally push a person into a
mental hospital.


you saw all this , and did nothing?

SV

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Oh No, now you've done it.

he's gonna post your address!!!!!!!!!


SV


"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:0JUTf.7378$_Q.2396@edtnps89...

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 01:10:59 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:47:39 GMT, "Capt.Mooron"

wrote:

Nice Smack Down Doug!!!
:-)

CM


Smack down? It was a lengthy WHINE. Poor Doug lost
some races, and of
course HE
couldn't be responsible! It must be those mean old US
Sailing people.
What
a
simpering wimp!

He smacked himself down with that one, Mooron.


Just out of Curiosity?? Since when... pray tell....
did you become
delusional enough to believe your opinion matters??

Seriously?!!!

CM


It appears it mattered to you, Guy!

Aw Sheesh... now you're all hurt again aren't you.....
you really should
get a thicker skin Billy! These tantrums you throw don't
go far in according
your opinions any merit. Now go take a "time-out" in the
corner until you've
thought this through.

This fricken' geriatric infantile behaviour of yours is
wearing thin.....

CM

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Just imagine the psychological torture of trying to work for a company that
operated like the organization you described.



"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...

"DSK" wrote

IMHO a lot of that has to do with personalities. The people who are
attracted to the upper levels of these types of groups are either service
driven (and their idea of "service" may not be the same as yours or mine)
or ego driven.

These groups turn the same people over and over in the
different jobs in the same functional areas. While they have
provision for changing the "leadership" positions, the old
guard remain highly placed within the organization and exert
tremendous influence. Basically, if you don't go along with
their "Party Line" you are forced out. So ideas become
entrenched.

A strong performer is a threat to the old guard because it
diminishes their authority. So while the old guard recirculates in
lesser positions they retain influence beyond their authority. I've
observed they do not want the newcomers to make significant
progress, particularly in areas the entrenched people formerly served
as leaders. In other words the old leaders do not want the new ones
to outshine them because this diminshes their authority. The concept
of moving things along, and getting things done is delayed to a snails
pace to mitigate such threats--perferably until someone else takes
over and the process continues. The net result is little gets done.

We do see that provisions are made to protect fiefdoms. Open
elections for specific positions are not part of the process. The
good old boys control access to jobs and influence.

However, if someone makes a big enough stink, topics do get
talked about. An outside threat can make things happen when
nothing else will. Keep up the pressure and things may change.

I tried in vain for a year to get the local USPS coastline squadrons
to coordinate their course offerings so that ever course would be
offered every year. The District felt threatened by this. Some
thought I was trying to split the district in half--not the case. It
was a simple matter of trying to serve the needs of the students.
Everyone told me that other people had tried to do this and failed.
I beat myself up trying to coordinate things, and the district people
ordered me to stop having working group meetings. Why? What
possible reason could they have. I invited them to set it up
organize it and lead it. Nothing. Eventually I quit. That actually
shook things up enough so that the meeting was finally scheduled.
Many people called me at the lower levels called and asked me
to participate. I'd had enough.

Similarly I've volunteered numerous times at US Sailing though
various people and they never got a reply back. Can you wonder
why I think they are so bogus? What non-profit turns away
any volunteer? That is the first thing you learn working at a
non-profit--never turn away a volunteer! What conclusion can
you draw except they are a bunch of losers--poorly lead, poorly
managed, and unable to represent their constituents.

I would describe USSA's role in the selection process as interfering,
money-laundering, and playing favorites.

They certainly give the appearance they are playing favorites. The
same names come up over and over again. That is a bad sign.

Still I'm shocked the system is not totally open and transparent
to the world. That would be fair. Whether they would argue the
system is fair not or not is not relevant. If it gives the appearance
of being unfair it is not an acceptable system. I'll have to look into
this. They should be hammered on the subject until they change to
a fair system.

But the US Olympic sailing selection process should absolutely be open,
ie the process & the priorities of the selection committee should be
known to the competitors. This "secret probation" malarkey is right out
of Animal House. They claim they don't want competitors to 'game the
system' but it's obviously (IMHO) being gamed from the inside.

How can you game the system if it is based on skills on the
water? I don't understand why this is not the case?

Again, it's a question of personalities... I think that some people
probably would refuse to serve on Race Committees if they didn't get the
chance to tyrannize the racers with their majestic authority. But USSA
certification magnifies this tendency when it should minimize it, IMHO.

I haven't raced much since I lived in the San Francisco Bay
area. The race committee work there was exceptional. Nearly
all the racing I did was one-design. I have no complaints
about it. If it did it would be nit picking. Of course the wind
was pretty consistent there--which makes it easy for a race
committee.

Here in Connecticut I can't say I'm terribly impressed with
the race courses they lay out. The PHRF racing I've been it
used buoys and never set a marks. It is laughable IMHO, and
hard to take seriously. They use downwind starts! Why? I
don't get it. On the other hand, the yacht club races for
one-design, seemed to be well run--many of them with very
impressive programs. Now this is club racing, not major
regattas where people seem to go pyscho.

How do you feel about the race committees at the yacht
club, fleet, level?

.... I'd like to know more about how US Sailing
spend their money.

A lot of people would. The dinghy classes are sure that their dues & fees
are subsiding the keelboats & offshore racing, the big boat guys are
complaining that they are ****ing away money on the little boats.

My choice would be to let the members vote where each of
there dollars is spent--without exception. If that means
some people don't get paid, too bad.

Where do they spend all the money?

I bet they do have an annual treasurer's report, but I don't know where
it's published.

I doubt many see it, and if they do, I'll bet the important
details are folded in to bigger pots where they won't show.
I want to see spreadsheets broken down by funcation area
down to the line item expenditure.

As I said before, my solution was to pretty much shrug off involvement...
except when pulled into it by the clubs where we sail.

My point of view also. With the addition of loudly pointing out
the problem areas to motivate those in charge into improving
the organization.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Or people REALLY impressed with themselves...

Bart Senior wrote:
Warning! While many in the USCGA are sharp seaman.

Many more are untrained novices in the "keystone cop" category.

"Dave" wrote

Jay Santos" said:
Is there some type of volunteer sail organization much like the Citizens'
Auxiliary Police that aid the Coast Guard?

Not a "sail organization," but there's a Coast Guard Auxiliary. Your local
CG should be able to put you in touch with the local one.

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
...
Bart,

Unfortunately your experiences are not unique.

I've seen a homeowner's association ruin a person who was
building a home
that was not even in their jurisdiction. The association
filed numerous
lawsuits against the person, officers of the association
tresspassed and
vandalized the construction site, they filed false
complaints and in the
end, when it got to court, they weren't even a legally
recognized home
owners association.

I've seen a narcissistic boss manipulate employees to work
as much overtime
as they would bear (without any form of compensation),
routinely expose
workers to ground up silicates (sending one to the
hospital) fumes and other
OSHA regulated hazards, not pay people at all, change time
cards, lie and
coverup to superiors, give raises in writing but never pay
them, run good
people out (40% turnover) and finally push a person into a
mental hospital.


you saw all this , and did nothing?

SV


It was worse than what I described. I did plenty, but to no apparent avail.
Time may tell otherwise.

Amen!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ahh... Bob the PT boat has not been restored.

That Sea Scouts troop have a big project that is going to cost big
bucks!

We have a WWII vintage PT here in Clearlake. Called the "Ohhh Frankie"
seems Sinatra was aboard during the war.

Joe

There's a wonderful restoration on the North side of Clear Lake, just east
of Red Adair's old place. It's a 19 foot sailboat. Have you seen it?

Praise!

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Never in the sea scouts, but you're right..I have been skipper of one
Sea Scout boat.

I was an airman in the C.A.P.

Were you a hall monitor in JHS?



Joe

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

Good point.

"Bob Crantz" wrote
Just imagine the psychological torture of trying to work for a company
that operated like the organization you described.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

More info please.

Joe

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"NotPony" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
:
: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.

Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long. Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.

In any event, why not accept the keelboat certification
if the instructor that can demonstrate the additional skills
of capsize recovery and weight and balance? They could
do that right off the dock in a few minutes right in front
of you.

Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks! What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!

The rules need to be changed to allow this sort of
thing. And income should not be a factor in the
decision!

: Do you think that every single certification requires
: that someone take an evaluation course? The purpose
: of which is to make money? Should there not be a
: process where a committee review is sufficient to
: grant such status?

I do. How else are you going to evaluate their
skills? Take their word for it? Most people I
know over estimate their skills.

How about putting them in an environment totally unlike
the relaxed environment of a teaching situation with a
ego-maniac and tyrant of an IT? If they don't kill the IT,
they can handle anything, right? Pass 'em!

I'm sure you realize that many students get nervous
if unnecessary pressure is put on them. The whole
idea is to help students feel comfortable on a boat.
That is an important characterist of an instructor.

If you want to evaluate someone on their teaching
skills, go along on a class and keep your mouth shut
and simply watch.

The same goes for instructors. Lots of people don't
perform well in an ambiguous role under a spotlight.
It is especially difficult when you use the standard for
teaching MOB's and suddenly find the IT has changed
the MOB procedure to his pet method without regard
to following the handbook. These things go on at US
Sailing clinics--I've seen it. US Sailing is not so good
that it can declare everyone else sucks.

If the methods are refined and the IT's are good, I am
not opposed to formal courses. I am opposed to forcing
people to take unnecessary courses, repetitions of what
they have taken before.

Certainly many things can be evaluated through tests
or written essays. And a short observation by an IT
or lead instructor, in the real world teaching real students
can fill in any remaining gaps. There should be some
flexibility in the program.

Lets get back to transfer credit.

What about the RYA? US Sailing based their program
on the RYA program. Would you accept transfer credit
from people who have successfully completed such
courses? If you do not agree then you better be willing
to back it up with a detailed explaination why not.

There are lots of programs out there. Colleges accept
transfer credit from other schools. You cannot ignore
the training people have received elsewhere.

US Sailing does that. The only reason can be they want
to make more money. While the declare, "Our standard
is tougher". What does that have to due with meeting a
standard that has been clearly defined and refined?

That is like MIT saying they are better than Cal Tech or
Berkeley. We won't accept your calculus course, you
have to take ours. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
The truth is the differences are minor, and US Sailing
can't give a sound justification for their policy.

Just once I'd like to see US Sailing offer a Safety at Sea
seminar for free. They don't do that. They charge for
it. I think you could find volunteer instructors that could
do a slightly better job than the existing instructors. I
studied their sylabus and I remember seeing a hole in
it--I can't remember where now.

It is insulting to require a course of that nature, and then
charge for it. If it were free then more people would be
inclined to sit in. The USPS has the right idea there. They
keep there costs to a minimum. You pay for books, and
their seminars are free. The quality is higher than what
US Sailing offers. Trust me I know. The USPS Piloting
and Advanced Piloting blow the doors off US Sailing or
the ASA's course work. It is like comparing high school
to graduate school. All of the USPS textbooks are the
best material available on each of their topics.

Shouldn't US Sailing accept courses materials like these
that are of a higher standard than their own?

Their attitude to to develop there own books and charge
for them.

If they are a non-profit decicated to doing good, why
don't the work with the USPS? Unlike US Sailing, the
USPS would certainly offer their support and assistance
for free.

What about a USCG license? That should automatically
place people out of many things, and at least abbreviate
much of the course requirements for all the basic courses
including topics like Navigational Aids, Rules of the Road,
etc. A Coast Gurad license completely exceeds the
requirements for the Coastal Navigation course.

Why is there no committee at US Sailing looking at
advanced accreditation for members?

: Given the close similarities between ASA and bogUS
: Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
: certified instructor need to re-qualify for US Sailing?

I don't know anything about the requirements for
ASA's keel boat instructors.

I've done both and they are virtually identical. For
God's sake Steve this is not rocket science!

I've seen US Sailing IT's that were afraid to short tack in
a marina or God Forbid sail down a channel! I could not
believe it. These are the ones with no dingy experience
that have weaseled their way up in the organization while
having HOLES in there knowledge. Should they me the
ones evaluating instructors?

Trust me there is more variation between instructors than
there is between the courses. If US Sailing will accept
instructors and even IT's that are uncomfortable in such
situations, how can they deny equivalent courses?

: Do you think a high percentage of the IT's should come
: from one sailing school? I don't.

Doesn't matter as long as they meet the standard.

That means one group has not just a greater influence than
others, but nearly all the influence. Lets get rid of all
the Democrats or all the Republicans. Such control is
not healthy and you know it.

: Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
: school should be the training chair? I don't.

Who better to understand the training requirements?
Would a pencil pusher be better qualified?

No, but someone who does not have a profit motivation
might be better. Even if they are not biased, it certainly
woudl prevent giving that appearance.

A community boating director for example would be a
better choice. If US Sailing is about doing something for
the sport, the commercial side specifically, should not
exert undo influence. Would it be appropriate for US Sailing
to commerically quash ASA and take over all commercial
sailing in the US? What would happen to costs then?

One of my beefs is instructors have no say in things.
There is no instructor's advocate. And I think this is
because of the control exerted by commercial schools.

The instructors are expected to be professionals but
are not treated as such--no health care for example.
School are run like grocery stores. Commerical Sailing
Schools keep the hours to less than full time, or make them
independent contractors. I worked 152 days out of
161 for Rich. Nine days off in that stretch and I was
part-time. No severance, and no bonus when I left.
I was #2 in tips, so I was doing something right.

I do not rely on instruction for making a living, but some
people do. They deserve better.

I know one fellow who died of Skin Cancer. I doubt
his family got any kind of insurance settlement.

Who looks after the sailing instructors? Do you think
the sailing schools will if it means money out of their
pockets? Oh your have cancer? Where do we send
your last check?

Do you think their control of key positions at US Sailing
will allow for any changes that will benefit sailing instructors
as a group if it costs the schools money?

: You say there are lots of opportunities for feedback
: on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap in the
: grievance process in the By-Laws for instructors?

Talk to your RTC.

I have and supposedly that is changing. I'm skeptical.
Have you heard anything?

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

I volunteered a few years ago to help out.
Unfortunately the guy who ran it didn't want
any help. Now he wants to quit and there is
no one who wants to take over cold turkey.

I wish I could commit the amount of time needed to
run the thing by myself--I just can't do it right now.

So what was the CAP like? I've only flown a few
times. I did get up in a jet and do acrobatics once
when in the Air Force. Very cool, but more
nauseating than the Gulf Stream.

Say do you know the name of Ralph and Norton's
boat on the Honeymooner's?

"Joe" wrote

Never in the sea scouts, but you're right..I have been skipper of one
Sea Scout boat.

I was an airman in the C.A.P.

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

katy, I took a tow from a boat load of those guys.

The skipper knew his stuff somewhat. The rest
were keystone cops. I could not believe they were
wearing those extra big heavy lifejackets on a hot
flat calm day. It was hilarious. One of them kept
pointed to me and telling me to put on my lifejacket.
I ignored him. But it was the first clue to making me
nervous. I think I told the story earlier. They nearly
stove the side of my boat in.

"katy" wrote
Or people REALLY impressed with themselves...

Bart Senior wrote:
Warning! While many in the USCGA are sharp seaman.

Many more are untrained novices in the "keystone cop" category.

bogUS Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

"NotPony" wrote
I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.


Bart Senior wrote:
Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long.

Depends on the sailor.
I've literally seen guys get angry and insist that something
was wrong with the boat, when putting them into a C-15 or JY
after years of sailing 30+' keel boats.


... Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.


I think that's a good idea, but it could get costly if you
turn them loose in a shallow area.

One small boat club I was involved with, had 4 boats bend
and/or break their masts in one day. After that, club
leadership suddenly got serious about demostrating cpasize
drills before turning people loose in boats.

They also got serious about using mast floats, which I think
NotPony's program already is.

This club eventually bought mainsails with foam top panels,
which I think is an awesome idea. Using these, the boats
were *impossible* to turtle under almost any circumstances.






Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks!

That's true, but then lots of them have also been out of it
for years. IMHO your idea about demonstrating the skills
makes sense.


... What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!


Well "stupid & inflexible" is the default setting on most
organizations consisting of more than 5 people, IMHO.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

US Sailing is NOT the governing body of the sport.
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..

you saw all this , and did nothing?

SV


It was worse than what I described. I did plenty, but to
no apparent avail.
Time may tell otherwise.


That's too bad. If I have a problem with my boss, I wait
till we're in bed, then bring it up. Works like a charm!

Scotty

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

I rather take over cold turkey then deal with the guy for years. It is
a big commitment of time, but well worth the effort. I have taught
motorboat handling skills to the Sea Scouts here but just as a guest
instructor.

I was maybe 11 when in the CAP. It was fun, learned navigation, rock
climbing, repelling, ect..ect...We had a cessna but I moved on before I
was allowed to even think about getting in the plane. Thats OK my dad
was a pilot and we flew most weekends. I think most programs like CAP,
SeaScouts, BSA, GSA, Junior Achivement, ect are all great programs that
can make all the difference in a kids life.

So you got a ride on the vomit comet huh?

Joe

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Go look. It's by the big metal building.

Amen!

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
More info please.

Joe

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Mys Terry wrote:

Junior High School starts in the 9th grade.

Its pretty clear you never got that far. Every junior high school
I've heard of started in 6th or 7th grade

Learning to sail the USA way.
 

Hit 3.5 negative G's and 4.5 positive in a loop.
Barrel Roll, Aileron Roll, Immelmann.

It was great fun cutting a piece out of a cloud.

I've watched fighters refuel flying over the Pacific,
sat on the flight deck behind and above the pilot
while flying over the Grand Canyon to name a
few other modest things I've done as an observer.

"Joe" wrote
I rather take over cold turkey then deal with the guy for years. It is
a big commitment of time, but well worth the effort. I have taught
motorboat handling skills to the Sea Scouts here but just as a guest
instructor.

I was maybe 11 when in the CAP. It was fun, learned navigation, rock
climbing, repelling, ect..ect...We had a cessna but I moved on before I
was allowed to even think about getting in the plane. Thats OK my dad
was a pilot and we flew most weekends. I think most programs like CAP,
SeaScouts, BSA, GSA, Junior Achivement, ect are all great programs that
can make all the difference in a kids life.

So you got a ride on the vomit comet huh?

Joe